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Yep, just 5. The minor ones, the root chord changes to a different spot of the pattern, you just have to 'reference' your ear to this new root.
Originally Posted by onetruevibe
However, if, for instance, you just compare Major Pattern I to Minor Pattern I you'll see which notes/scale degrees have to change to go from minor to major. I think that is probably why Elliott lists them this way.Last edited by fep; 04-30-2012 at 02:02 PM.
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04-30-2012 01:58 PM
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Thanks for the quick response fep. That makes good sense to me. I think it is helpful to be able to see how they differ so you have a visual to match what the ear hearing. The more modalities involved the better for me
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Book arrived today. I'm psyched. Learning the 'connection game' is going to be a watershed for me.
Made up my own list of ten tunes, which contains several items in common with previous lists and a few that aren't, mainly because they are songs I like to sing!
Summertime
Autumn Leaves
Satin Doll
Between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea
I'm Just A Lucky So-And-So
Honeysuckle Rose
Mean To Me
Don't Get Around Much Anymore
These Foolish Things
All The Things You Are
Should the group do it's own "practical standards" approach, I'd gladly take up whatever tunes garner the most votes. They're all worth knowing.
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Once you get the first couple of patterns under your fingers, you can take those and apply them to your favorite standards. It's fun! Originally Posted by markerhodes
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Man - I completely forgot about my 10 standards. I've been so busy working on the situations. Originally Posted by FatJeff
I'm going to apply this to Autumn Leaves tonight. Thanks for the reminder.
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That's what I'm counting on, Jeff! This is a weak area for me. I know a lot of arpeggio 'grips,' but I've never worked out a method of seamlessly connecting them. It's been more hit and miss (-more miss, frankly.) This is a case of 'the right book at the right time' for me. Originally Posted by FatJeff
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After you get bored with Autumn Leaves (which is completely diatonic within the minor key), try something that modulates or throws in some nondiatonic chords. Examples: Satin Doll, Green Dolphin Street, There Will Never Be Another You, All Of Me, any blues (major or minor). Things start to get more interesting... Originally Posted by onetruevibe
Man - I completely forgot about my 10 standards. I've been so busy working on the situations.
I'm going to apply this to Autumn Leaves tonight. Thanks for the reminder.
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I use system CAGED is this going to be a problem? I really don't what to learn another scale system.
I hope I can use the CAGED system with this book.
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My book arrived a few days ago and I'm moving along. From what I've seen in the first few lessons, the author does use the CAGED system. He just stays within one fingering pattern for a whole series of chords.
My question is why the book is so adamant about using the alternate picking. I've worked hard to break out of this pattern and am now getting comfortable with directional picking and like it.
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I read that alternating picking as applying to those that haven't yet developed that skill. That is really not the gist of the book. I use economy picking often myself, so I don't stick to the strict alternating picking. Originally Posted by kofblz
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I don't think that a specific fingering or picking system is really required to work through this book. It looks to me that the important point is to be able to play and connect scales and arpeggios in a smooth, regular way. The author seems to think that this is best achieved with alternate picking but to me this is not the key point (I do alternate pick though because I have never learned anything else and it feels ok to me. I would like to have command over alternatives though).
The fingering systm in the book I simply see as a suggestion and I do not see that anything is gained by one system over the other. I sometimes shift, sometimes stretch, sometimew mix, sometimes do it different on the way up or down and I do not feel that this leads to any difficulties. (well , after seeing Alan Holdsworth play recently I do think that there is some benefit to stretching over shifting)
The key point of the book to me is to really get the connections and chord tones into the ear and the fingers up to the point where these connections become second nature. For me that really works and I feel that I get more out of this book than any other I have worked with so far.
To be so strongly insistant on playing regular eigth notes in such a repetitive "drill" like fashion is really helping to hardwire these connections - at least to me. It is funny, but I feel that this creates, over time, a better feel for rhythm and more "freedom" on the fretboard. I am curious to see how We're all doing at the end of the study group relative to the beginning. Probably we should have recorded a few of the songs that we want to be our repertoire before starting to work with the book.
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CAGED will work fine. If you examine CAGED and the Elliot fingerings, they are practically the same. Originally Posted by edh
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Good to know, Jeff. I'm expecting the book any day now.
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Hey, hey, the arps in Pattern I and Pattern II are coming together. Man, I felt like a total klutz for about a week, now I'm up walking around! Slow and wobbly, but upright!
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I'm not so sure about this. Obviously, if someone has not learned to use alternate picking, then now's the time. Yet I have a hard time thinking this book is aimed at someone who has not used alternate picking! (I mean, heck, if you aren't that far along, you aren't ready to become a jazz soloist, right?) Originally Posted by fep
I think Elliott wants students to play *arpeggios* with alternate picking because it is a) more demanding than scale-based alternate picking, and b) it is rhythmically consistent and he wants to engrain the feel of playing long sequences of eighth notes in a rhythmically consistent way.
I'm going to send Joe an email, see what he says about this.
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Cool Mark. I'll be interested in what Joe says. Originally Posted by markerhodes
I'm coming from having spent quite a bit of effort in the last 4 or 5 months changing to a Benson picking technique which involves economy picking. For me alternating picking is easier. But, I don't want to take what for me would be a step backwards and abandon economy picking which works better for me. I'd be interested to see what Joe says in that context.
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Fep, I heard back from Joe Elliott. How cool is that---same day response, and it's a holiday! I thought about posting the email but decided not to. There's nothing controversial in it, but I didn't ask first and so I think I shouldn't.
But I can quote a few lines: "The reasoning for alternate picking has to do with having great time... With beginners and intermediate
players, I always suggest alternate picking....Now having said all that, let me contradict myself. There are so many great players who use economy picking that there is ample ammunition for an argument against what I just said."
He goes on to say he is not a stickler for technique (-meaning he's not a stickler for any particular approach to technique; he thinks developing good technique should be part of each player's daily routine.)
(Back me me, Mark.) I worked with a Gambale book years ago and did some sweeping. I'm making a point of using strict alternate picking in the Elliott exercises though because I never spent this kind of serious time on arpeggios before and I want to make sure my timing is solid as a rock before considering ways to play faster.
Advanced players know what is best for them.
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Yeah that is so cool that he responded to your email.
Thanks for passing that on.
BTW, I do us alternating picking when descending.
Also, when I try to push myself and increase the tempo to were it's difficult, I tend to fall back to all alternating picking. It's a habit I'd like to break.
It seems we are crossing paths on this one.
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I see it as we're both doing what we think is best for us to do now! Nothing wrong with that. I am certainly not *against* sweep picking. What I am is *erratic* and I want to work on alternate picking, esp with arpeggios, string skips, and the like, until it's rock solid; then I can try things to increase speed if I feel the urge. (Can't imagine not; what guitarist *doesn't* want to play fast? I think Jim Hall *wants* to, but he's made peace with what he has, and boy should he take pride in his achievements!) Put another way, accuracy is my main aim now, and good time. Alternate picking is great for keeping your time steady. Originally Posted by fep
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I'm in! Got my book today.
Read the introduction, and checked that I have the knowledge needed to work with this book.
Have been reading chapters 26-28, and the conclusion.
Studied chapter 1, played the key center exemples and digested the information about the differences between key center soloing and chord tone soloing.
Thanks for organizing this fep, great initiative!
I'm ready to go! See you in the next thread!
/ Tony
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I would love to join in. I have this book and put some time into it last year. I have put it down for quite a while and would do well to start over. I believe I qualify, I have the basics of theory( modes, harmonized scales ) and can play in those positions for major and minor without thinking too hard ( I usually don't CAGED or number these, they are like inversions of the same thing in my brain and I just know em from repetition) I am rock n roller that wants more than scales and licks to fall back on. I probably will never a convincing jazz player, but what the heck, i love the music and want to have as much fun with this guitar as possible.
I read chapters 26, 27, & 28. I did not do this when I originally got the book. This is a good action , it makes the book seem a bit more interesting. I especially liked the chart Fep had made of the "stages of learning songs a la Joe Elliott" and made myself something similar. I am going to have trouble making a good time budget and sticking to it, but I will make an attempt.
Here are my songs:
Autumn Leaves
All the Things You Are
Straight No Chaser
Summertime
All of Me
Don't Get Around Much Anymore
Take the A Train
I Mean You
Round Midnight
Blue Monk
I understand Key Centered vs Chord Tone soloing. I just spent the last 15 years playing too "in the key" and have over the last several years gotten to playing right on the chords. I get it, i know its better to play on the chords, it is what is actually going on most of the time. Sometimes there is just a general sense of key and all the notes work well, but the chord tones is where the action is. I know it, i want to outline the chords in my playing, i and i generally do now.
I am quite excited to revisit this book, I like the methods that give you the hard work to do, but give you plenty of guidance. I expect to stay a bit behind this advanced group, but will try to make every attempt to digest the material quickly and move on.
hope i can participate well, make some recording and such, if it seemed more interactive I should get into it more, thanks for having this excellent study group
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I just joined the forum a couple days ago, so all this is new to me. I'm assuming it'll be okay if I jump in a bit late. Haven't ordered the book yet. I'll probably do that later today.
I've read through the material posted so far, and tried out the scale patterns. I didn't know what "CAGED" meant so I had to go look it up. Turns out it was something I was already familiar with.
My soloing style right now is pretty solidly blues, with some stretching that has occurred because of about four decades of classical guitar study and playing. IOW, I'll insert scale passages here and there, as the urge strikes me. It wasn't until I began studying music theory that I realized that most blues soloing is pentatonic with the Dorian 6th and the major 9th tossed in if soloing in a "minor" key, or actually Mixolydian when soloing in a "major" key.
One good aspect of the many hours spent practicing the Segovia Diatonic Scales is I'm familiar with most any scale pattern, or at least major fragments of them. I'm also pretty much a strict alternate picker, which I've insisted upon as a means of disciplining a lazy right hand (lots of sweeping when I played blues). Economy picking is also used by classical players, but it's a technique, whether with fingers or a pick, that I've always put off, figuring that alternate picking was "plenty good enough."
When it comes to soloing over jazz tunes, a problem I've always had was soloing over changes that involved key modulations. Used to soloing by ear, or to be more accurate, used to soloing with a limited toolbox of licks that were all strongly key-centric, I didn't have the discipline to pay attention to the key changes and adjust my playing accordingly. To this day, when I do pay attention, my style often becomes rushed, stilted, or contrived sounding. So this is where I'm hoping to benefit most from this book and this series of threads here at the forum.Last edited by cooltouch; 10-04-2012 at 01:51 PM.
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Hi Cooltouch,
There's no problem joining in now. We all go at different speeds and we can all jump back and forth between the threads to check out and give support to what other participants are up to.
Cheers,
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Hi All,
This is my first post here, after lurking for several months. I've been looking for a way to get into jazz guitar, and this method books looks perfect. (I'm a former rock bass player, now looking for something to do after the kids go to bed!)
This book actually operates as a kind of jazz-specific extension of another MI book I've been working out of for a month or so, "Chord Tone Soloing" by Barrett Tagliarino, which also uses the connecting game with arpeggios.
Chord Tone Soloing: A Guitarist's Guide to Melodic Improvising in Any Style (Musicians Institute: Private Lessons): Barrett Tagliarino: 9780634083655: Amazon.com: Books
So, I'm jumping in and will lag quite a bit behind everyone else. Thanks all for inspiring me!
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Hi Howie, Originally Posted by wizard3739
Just came accross your comment and it definitely struck a chord inside me... i've been pondering about this 5-pattern vs 7-pattern scale approach, and your experience and advice could prove very useful. I'll try to share my view on this issue, and I'd love to hear what others have to say.
I'm sorry if this is off-topic... I'll be glad to move it anywhere more appropriate if that's possible (mind you, now i've seen this topic, I'm definitely getting myself this book !)
The 7-pattern approach enables you to start off with your 1st or 2nd finger on just ANY note of the scale, say on the 6th string, and just play through it 3 notes per string without ever having to shift position in the slightest. It is not quite the case with the 5-pattern approach, which kind of leaves you sitting on the fence between 2 positions sometimes... which may prove problematic at times in the middle of a chorus, when lucidity is not always available in its entirety ;-)
I'm not sure I'm being clear here, but what i mean to say is that the 7-p way is basically a little more comprehensive than the 5-p one, in that it includes it, plus a bit more. Flip side of the coin is that it's a little more complex too.
I first learnt scales on my own using 7 patterns... some of which I don't use a lot I must say, for instance the one starting on the 7th degree, then for years i've been kind of swaying between 7-p and 5-p without ever being really sure which one I should go for once and for all. For instance when studying modes in a systematic way, it's great to have 7 patterns, it just fits in perfectly. That prevented me from dropping 2 of them for good :-)
So... what I wondered upon reading your comment is : why say you wish you had used the caged system ? What's your general view on the matter ?
Cheers,
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