Joe Pass' "barre forms"

[nosoyninja]

I'm not sure if this is the correct area of the forum for this, but I wanted to share a question that's been racking at my brain for the longest time. I own 3 different Joe Pass instruction vids, the chord melody one where he goes through I VI II V I, the blues tape, and the much later one about single note lines. In all three of them he mentions in passing that every scale run he plays comes from a "barre form" or "grip". And he always says "but that's something for another tape...". So he never ends up explaining what he means!

I'm wondering if there's anyone here that knows what he means by these barre forms and if theres a particular book or video in which he goes into detail about this approach. Does he mean CAGED forms? Drop 2 or drop 3 shapes maybe? Or shell voicings... Anyone?

Thanks!

[dhaskins]

if you Google Joe Pass Guitar Chords, you can probably find a pdf of that book. i don't have it, but maybe what you're looking for is in there

[Conway]

Yeah, Im pretty sure her is referring to the CAGED system. I love and hate Pass for making it so popular. He is one of the only people I know that pulled that system off, but it was likely developed after he knew what he was doing. People use it as a shortcut and they pay for that shortcut.

[Sandor]

Joe did use CAGED, but it seems like he allowed himself more leeway with the fingerings than most people seem to. I think that is a big thing about CAGED that people miss. As long as you can visualize the chord it is based on, the fingering for the scale can vary.

[nosoyninja]

Thanks for the replies! It's one of those questions that just kept bugging me. You know he has such a laid back and funny style in those videos, so informal. I just felt I was missing out on some key insight or idea.

In response to both conway and sandor: Any system, be it caged, or otherwise, is just a map. Maps just point the way, and your supposed to use your ear and creativity for the rest.

[Conway]

Thanks for the replies! It's one of those questions that just kept bugging me. You know he has such a laid back and funny style in those videos, so informal. I just felt I was missing out on some key insight or idea.

In response to both conway and sandor: Any system, be it caged, or otherwise, is just a map. Maps just point the way, and your supposed to use your ear and creativity for the rest.

but if you have a silly map, its not very helpful. Ever since the creation of the, "guitar god" people have been doing silly things to learn guitar and make money off of guitar. Western approach to harmony is very limited and filled with shortcuts in the way its taught in lessons and schools.

Its better to know what your doing so you can make your own maps and as many as you want. Pass knew what he was doing long before he used a system to convey what he was saying.

[monk]

Yeah, Im pretty sure her is referring to the CAGED system. I love and hate Pass for making it so popular. He is one of the only people I know that pulled that system off, but it was likely developed after he knew what he was doing. People use it as a shortcut and they pay for that shortcut.

Pass knew what he was doing long before he used a system to convey what he was saying.

Joe learned to play during the Swing Era when it was common for guitarists to use chord shapes as a basis for their solos. Charlie Christian, Django Reinhardt and George Barnes all did this. The George Barnes Guitar Method, published in 1943, shows the five shapes as a platform for constucting solos. The Eddie Lang Guitar Method from 1935 shows a similar approach using the same shapes.

While it was not referred to as the CAGED system in those days it was certainly in place as a learning/visualisation tool when Joe was learning to play.

As far as Joe being the only one who ever pulled it off, I will refer again to Charlie Christian, Django Reinhardt, Eddie Lang and George Barnes as well as Johnny Smith, Barney Kessell and Wes Montgomery as guitarists who used chord shapes as a fingerboard map. In the pre-mode, pre-scale days of hot jazz, swing and bebop, it was the way guitarists played.

[Conway]

Joe learned to play during the Swing Era when it was common for guitarists to use chord shapes as a basis for their solos. Charlie Christian, Django Reinhardt and George Barnes all did this. The George Barnes Guitar Method, published in 1943, shows the five shapes as a platform for constucting solos. The Eddie Lang Guitar Method from 1935 shows a similar approach using the same shapes.

While it was not referred to as the CAGED system in those days it was certainly in place as a learning/visualisation tool when Joe was learning to play.

As far as Joe being the only one who ever pulled it off, I will refer again to Charlie Christian, Django Reinhardt, Eddie Lang and George Barnes as well as Johnny Smith, Barney Kessell and Wes Montgomery as guitarists who used chord shapes as a fingerboard map. In the pre-mode, pre-scale days of hot jazz, swing and bebop, it was the way guitarists played.

having a roadmap of chords isnt my issue. To not use a system that is already there in the makeup of the guitar would be stubborn and odd.

as for my comment about him being the only one, well first I said one of the few, but it was meant as a gesture not historical fact. That gesture being that that system is taught country wide leaving kids with no idea of how to actually approach the instrument on their own. Because some have risen above the system isnt an argument that its a good system.

To add, you metioned the old use of it pre-scale, which I think is a major difference. The worshiping of scales and scale systems lik CAGED are my issue.

But, I learned some sweet facts about some of my favorite players! Thanks fellow Tennesseian.

[monk]

I'm not into scale worship either. But in the older way of looking at it CAGED wasn't a scale sytem as much as it was a way of locating chord tones.

From there, the player learned to add color tones and passing tones to create solos or to more easily learn the recorded solos of guys like Christian. If one knows where 1, 3 and 5 are, everthing else becomes either a color tone or a passing tone that connects color tones to chord tones.

Since chords are built from scales, it was an easy, obvious step to use the shapes to teach scales since the chord and the scale occupy the same area.

[Conway]

I'm not into scale worship either. But in the older way of looking at it CAGED wasn't a scale sytem as much as it was a way of locating chord tones.

From there, the player learned to add color tones and passing tones to create solos or to more easily learn the recorded solos of guys like Christian. If one knows where 1, 3 and 5 are, everthing else becomes either a color tone or a passing tone that connects color tones to chord tones.

Since chords are built from scales, it was an easy, obvious step to use the shapes to teach scales since the chord and the scale occupy the same area.

Right, and it became a shortcut system years later. When I was in school I couldnt believe they taught this system. The lack of knowledge that people graduated school with because they used it as the ground floor of harmony was enormous and nearly fully encompassing. Its the lack of foundation thats the issue (for me), not the generations who built the foundation.

[wiglebot]

Joe Pass was in demand as a musician and had to read and understand music. The guy was a professional studio Musician and still one of the best solo chord melody players.
1. In one vid he works through substitutions to end up on chromatic chords and says, how did we get talking about so much theory -- so he knew it.
2 He said in one vid about adapting when playing with Ella Fitzgerald, then with a big band and piano.
3. Also in one of the vids he did say for practice he would grab chords and play the scale up to that chord.
4. And he thought about chords from their bass note -- not an inversion. So a D7/A (xx7778), he might see as a Am6/11 or Am6. Because he also said he sees extensions as being in the higher registers of chords. Anyway bad example, because he would walk the bass past the D on the 5th string.

So I always wondered what he meant by saying he sees every chord as a barre chord too. Also he said he likes to play simple things in reach, but was always doing complex chords while stretching to play bass lines and keep a pedal tone.

[nosoyninja]

So I always wondered what he meant by saying he sees every chord as a barre chord too. Also he said he likes to play simple things in reach, but was always doing complex chords while stretching to play bass lines and keep a pedal tone.

I allways crack up when he says: "you wont here any arpeggios in my playing" then the next line he plays is chock full of arpeggios! Such a funny character...

[Moonray]

Conway .... Just curious as to what you would propose as an
alternative means of fingerboard mapping, since you are so
opposed to CAGED ....and whatever other approaches?
I hope you may be able to turn us on to what you think
is preferable.
I must declare my generalized orientation to CAGED as that was how
I picked up the guitar.....in the [loooong] mean time I've explored
3 notes per string...."region" playing...mainly used by heavy studio
reading cats....along with Leavitt's concept..works but can be a little
clunky etc etc...and still up for any new ideas.
Also, playing classical guitar for over 30 years required finding fingerings
beyond any "system"...particularly mid 20th century - early 21st century
repertoire.
That was very liberating!
However, when teaching I found that most students were delighted to
have some over view that is so elegant [for tonal music anyway] as CAGED
provides.....I'm talking mainly jazz students...but came to see the value for the classical students as well.
In closing my ramble through this topic, I remember an article by Curt Sheller I think it was, who proposed in Just Jazz Guitar mag that it was really important to be beyond positions, and offered some short musical
phrases that he fingered in a wide variety of ways. Some of them downright
strange.
I could see where he was coming from...I would say it was..a hear it/play it approach as distinct from a see it/play it one.
A great idea and ideal that we might all find useful to some degree.
Finally, I remember David Baker, the great jazz teacher/author saying in
class one day something to the effect that.." you should strive to find your
own voice, but show yourself some mercy"....I believe he was referring to
the time and effort taken by many [most] to copy...but ultimately, find a
way for yourself, believe and go with it.
I mean that worked fine for Joe Pass did it not?
So what is your suggestion?

[RyanM]

....in the [loooong] mean time I've explored
3 notes per string...."region" playing...mainly used by heavy studio
reading cats....

What do you mean by 'region playing'?


re: CAGED, I never formally learned any method based on Caged... it's something I discovered more on my own. So I'm not sure exactly how it's taught...

but I don't think you can really say it's a shortcut- it's just a fact of how the guitar is tuned. Two octave shapes that connect up the neck. It's not about fingerings or any particular chord.

[alwaysharp]

I enjoy the CAGED system. When I first started working with it I was much more of a rock guy though and totally "stuck in the box". The CAGED thing really helped me open up some gray areas on the neck. Couple that with one string at a time and things really started opening up. I should mention that I really used it to see chord tones and then I could use whatever scale I see fit at the time, not necessarily with specific fingerings. I should also mention that it hasn't been much of a shortcut. Lol. I had to put in a lot of work for those notes to start lighting up, still do. For me it was more just a method of organizing things into something i could actually manage in my practice.

[Moonray]

The "region" approach to the fingerboard is one I came across in the 80's.
It was the subject matter for a book by Tom Bruner : "Developing a Technique
for Melodic Sight reading on the Guitar" [pub. Mel bay 1980]
Bruner emphasizes that this is an approach intended for sight reading.
...and that it was not method for learning scales and arpeggios and that
the reader would already have a grasp of those fundamentals.

OK : Region 1 is the area of the the board from fret 1 - 6 incl.

Region 2 is from fret 3 - 10 incl.

Region 3 is fret 6 - 15 incl.

Region 4 is fret 11 - 20 incl.

As you can see, there are two quite different aspects to this way of
operating.
The first being the overlap between each region and its next door neighbor...which gets greater as you go up the neck...frets closer
together....so more territory can be covered.

The other , not so obvious difference is to be thinking of the "range" of
notes available to you in that region.
eg: Region 1 = Low F [open E if you like] up to Bb 1st string
Region 2= Low G up to D first string .
.....And so on....
I've found this way of playing to be quite liberating....[I adapted Bruner's
SR concept to general playing...kinda by accident]
BTW, the reading exercises are quite tricky...intervallic,almost atonal.
Definitely recommended for the more experienced player looking for more
SR fodder.

Meanwhile back with the OP.....just a thought ...aren't Pat Martino's "Five
Activities" just a [relative minor] mirror image of CAGED?
He lays them out in his Linear Expressions book.
As I was learning each line I was struck with how they all were the same
as their relative major.
I'm sure many of us here, of a certain age would remember the mini
satori experienced as kids starting out trying to cop bluesy lines off
rock and blues stuff, and realizing the link..."oh he's playing A so I can
play either F#minor [pent or scale] I called that "sweet"...or he's playing
sorta tough and down in the alley...so I play A minor..that one I called
"sour"......So you've got "sweet and "sour"...I noticed later that BB King
used this widely.
I reckon that's quite likely how Pat came up with his Minor Concept..which
I gather he only named when he needed a way to tell other players how he
arrived at [some] of his prodigious outpourings.

Back to dear Joe Pass, I think he expected the viewers of his videos to
understand that the "bar forms" were purely figurative and on the odd
occasion that he held a bar chord down, it was purely to show the
underlying skeleton [chord] that gave rise to the line or "jazzed-up" chord
that he had just played.
He had the whole neck so DOWN, that I quite believe that reply he liked to give to people who asked him what he was thinking about when he played........."Nothin'" ....Love it!
Isn't that what we're all after here?!

Whew what a rant, I don't post often....but when I do.............!

Thanks for reading if you made this far.

One day I'll post a study [sounds a bit grand]....that I did comparing the fingerboard
overviews of three of the great masters, whose work had been fairly
reliably documented......["Big"] Pat, Joe and Barry Galbraith.

......Some Other Time ....as one of my favorite ballads goes.

[wiglebot]

Yea, Joe Pass did have the neck down.
I use Jimmy Bruno neck positions if that matters. Seems logical.

[bobby d]

The idea is to play a chord (grip) and then play the scale or exercise without moving your hand from that position. And the CAGED systems is part of the technique.

i.e. play a G major chord in each CAGED position and play notes within the G Major scale while keeping your 1st finger anchored (barred).