looking for a good book on playing 'outside'

[beeeastman1]

tab preferred.

any suggestions?

more blues/rock/fusion

thnks

also looking for a good book of funky bluesy chord voicings

thnks

[TH]

Learn to play inside and learn why. Then do what you must to break out and feel satisfied. That's playing outside.
How to play outside? That's where the wood shed is. You know what to do.
Get a wife with sensitive ears. Practice a lot of repetitive passages, that'll put you outside real fast.

WILMA!!! THAT's playing outside.
David

[Rob MacKillop]

Take any improv book, then play everything a semitone higher. Job done.

[princeplanet]

Get a wife with sensitive ears. Practice a lot of repetitive passages, that'll put you outside real fast.


David

Ha! My wife's ears are so sensitive she hears me practice on an unplugged Les Paul in the lounge room while she's in bed. I'm learning to play real soft! I hear thats why Wes learned to play with his thumb......

[JakeAcci]

Sounds like some Scott Henderson transcription might do the trick?

[M-ster]

Sounds like some Scott Henderson transcription might do the trick?

I thought of Scott, too. Maybe start with Robben Ford, who sounds more rock, bluesy, but manages to sneak some cool things in.

[Conway]

playing outside is just a branch on the limp of playing inside. seek out what your looking for but I would suggest searching even more on playing inside to get to the outside. Attack from both sides.

[aniss1001]

No answers on this?

Well I guess playing outside is hard to write a book about. From my transcribing it seems to me that it doesn't matter to much WHAT you play when you're going outside. The important thing is how you RESOLVE it. That is pulling it back inside.

But here are some ideas...

Lets say you're playing over A minor. You could play either Ab or A# minor and the pull it back into A minor. Easy trick. Works espacially well with pentatonics IMO.

You could also play the DOMINANT of that chord (which of course resolves well). For instance playing an E altered, E HW or E whole tone scale.

The diminished scales in general are great for sounding outside. Try both the HW and the WH over A minor.

Or you can play a scale that ALMOST fits. Like for instance the dorian b2 over A minor.

Just some ideas...

Scofield is a master of this. Check out some solos on albums such as "A gogo" or "Blue matter".

[boatheelmusic]

I think you may really like Don Mock's "Secrets of Melodic Minor" book and accompanying CD.

[Theza101]

transcribe the youtube clip of Michael Brecker playing "Oleo".

He is the master of playing outside.

[0zoro]

Try listening to Jimmy Bruno, who has a couple of DVDs on the subject as well as a whole web school. His approach, as I percieve it is to learn the functions, by ear, of the inside notes, and then add the knowledge of the outside notes. It is a slow affair for me, but i am a slow learner. None the less I think it is functionally more effective than a theroy anser. Best of luck!

[bako]

David Liebman's book "A Chromatic Approach To Jazz Harmony and Melody" is the best that I am aware of.
It starts with this prerequisite assumption quoting from the book:
"The concepts described here necessitate an expertise in jazz basics. More specifically, that means the mastery of scales, modes, chords, arpeggios, etc. in the language of the normal diatonic system. In jazz terms, it simply means the ability to play the changes fluently."

I prefer thinking in terms of "chromatic" or "organized use of tension levels" to the phrase "playing outside".
"Outside" seems to imply something outlaw, breaking rules, flirting with the unknowable.
I rather think in terms of continually expanding vocabulary and the expressive palette, uncovering new relationships.

[whatswisdom]

If you're going to play outside, better make sure your know how to play inside.
-Lee Konitz

The more constraints one imposes, the more one frees one's self. And the arbitrariness of the constraint serves only to obtain precision of execution.
-Igor Stravinsky

The real composer thinks about his work the whole time; he is not always conscious of this, but he is aware of it later when he suddenly knows what he will do.
-Igor Stravinsky

[ottocat]

Knowing what the interval will sound like before you play it is important.
I find in my playing lately ,if it makes rhythmic sense ,pitch becomes almost completely irrelevant.How you resolve it,or get back inside is what counts .
Over any chord (theoretically) you'll have 4 good pitches ,4 not so good pitches and 4 really bad ones to choose . That pretty much covers them .
I started with flat 5's then flat 2's ,added flat 6's ,already used flat7's .
Sometimes I just play shapes with my left hand .....blah... I can make other guys laugh.....I just made that up myself . If you carry it to far you'll lose the listener.I've found the hard way most listeners don't have a very sophisticated ear.....ie...they say I know what I like...I say you like what you know.

[Moonray]

ottocat...your reference to playing shapes with your left hand gave me
a smile ... and reminded me of Howard Roberts' "sonic shapes" as he called
them...just geometric shapes that he moved round wantonly as the
urge grabbed him. Lots of fun!....I think that's a key to getting out
there..try a playful approach.
BTW Some of those HR articles that were originally printed in Guitar Player
mag and could well be out there on the web...the ones I'm referring to
were called "sonic shapes" and "son of sonic shapes".
The concept also reappears in his trilogy "guitar compendium".

Also, I recall a very interesting article in GP mag by Joe Diorio [and he's a
man who knows where the door is when he wants out!] I think it was
called "playing on the right side of the brain"...using an idea he referred to as "gesturing"...visual artists use this technique to loosen up the creative
juices before starting work...
Joe went into this more on a video for REH called "creative jazz guitar"
[and also goes through a transformation of simple jazz chords by
just moving the note on one string up or down by one fret, calling out what
the resulting chord is ...if it's nameable ...or with a straight face, calling
out "movie chord!" when he hits an out there one...hilarious....again the
playful approach]

If it's a good solid study on the topic of playing out you're after, I'd 2nd
Bako's suggestion of the the Leibman book.
For a most comprehensive overview I really dig Hal Crook's book/cd set
"beyond time and changes"......I've read it through but have yet to get
down and work with it ...Hal's books are the business as far as I'm concerned....all published by Advance.

Have fun out there!

[nosoyninja]

Hal crook has a new book out called Beyond Time and Changes that apparently deals with outside playing and free jazz. If his books on "inside" playing and improvisation are any guide, this book is sure to be a thorough and meticulous approach. I saw it on his webpage here:

Books

saluton!

[ottocat]

On the note of shapes . I play on my lap .I strongly believe that guitar is visual ,besides all the years I've trained my ear and studied . On my lap I can actually see the fretboard . My hand is smallish . I can cover more space from pinky to thumb , than pinky to index.
I asked myself ,do you play conventionally , because it is the way?
Or, are you following a paradigm ? Just accepting without thinking ?
For 30 years ,I played conventionally. After spending about a year playing lap steel .I started recognizing shapes in different tunings , mostly 1 string arps .
Self I said", Why not play your regular stuff on your lap ? I can actually see where to go . Very awkward at first . I had to slow down and start actually creating and spontaneously composing . I had to give up weedly running scales , like most guitar players do .I was sick of playing jive . Although Carlos made millions playing weedly weedly Phrygian shapes .
I've improved immensely in a year and a half. I can whip the scales around almost at the same speed as before .Plus I see arps at a glance ,all over the place ,I play way more melody .I can also play really nice melody with the slide .Even works on jazzish stuff the band plays.
A lot of other players scoff . Some people even get angry about it. I guess it makes them uncomfortable . Somebody actually doing something different with the guitar. Now my mind is a smigen ahead of my hands , not my hands ahead of my mind ,another 6 months .
I need to get after writing this whole theory out .
I have a almost 2 year old grandson ,I am hoping to prove my thesis with......Guitar is taught the hard way.
He bangs on the guitar ,plays slide noises , and sings little songs ,at this point . Grampa has had him in his lap playing since he was born.

[eddy b.]

2nd on the Liebman book really really good.

[Pax]

perhaps Joe Diorios Intervalic designs.

[wolflen]

perhaps Joe Diorios Intervalic designs.

for me..(third time through this book) the ideas joe gives just connect the most abstract ideas into nice melodic (diatonic) lines..

his exercises with diminished, augmented, chromatic and b5 lines..give you enough material to play out but not get lost within a harmonic passage..

[nado64]

You can begin to play outside with the pentatonic scales.
"Pentatonic scales for jazz improvisation - The ramon ricker jazz improvisation series" is a good book to learn and understand the method.

[Reg]

As most seem to agree and from what I remember from the stone age..
There are many concepts or methods of organizing what you play from outside the tonal area. Just as you try and organize, shape and balance what and how your trying to play, compose etc... on the "inside". What ever concept(s) your using to play on the outside... usually needs the same organization.

You can use mechanical techniques, playing traditional concept(s), at some transposition, up... down or whatever organized pattern or sequence you choose... inversion or inverted, retrograde or reversing and then you can mix and match... retrograde, inversion and transposed. Applied melodically and harmonically.

There are also somewhat harmonic methods of achieving... "outside".
So you generally have a tonality... a tonal center...with it's relationships. You can expand , add notes to existing tonal collection... to the point of chromaticism.
Use multiple tonic systems, (Coltrane), in organize manor. Use two or more tonalities together...duel or poly tonality. Use a free change or pattern of modal or tonal organization with root relationships.

There are many harmonic concepts... how you use those concepts... Transitional, direct or pivot, is almost as important.

Use of ostinato concepts... pedals...with both what you play and what you play over...

You can also use rhythmic organization.

Even nontertial , (3rds), organization of tonal harmony becomes almost outside when used right. Connecting notes with fourths etc...

Log story short... You probable know enough to organize playing outside methods already... Most don't play outside any better than they play inside.... Reg

[Rich Cochrane]

David Liebman's book "A Chromatic Approach To Jazz Harmony and Melody" is the best that I am aware of.

^ another vote for this one, but be warned: it's not exactly a quick licks type of book. I like Moonray's ideas about being playful, too. Just put on a simple backing track and try some stuff out.

One simple approach is to use what I call "coscales" -- i.e., play with all (and only) the notes that are not in whatever you consider to be the set of "inside" sounds. Typically these make a scale or arpeggio in themselves. Here's a video of Michael Wolff demonstrating this in a modal context:

Come to think of it, it's been a while since I worked with them but I suspect the Ron Miller books on modal jazz give some interesting perspectives.

I'm going to check out Hal Crook's book, didn't know about that one but it sounds interesting.

[JakeAcci]

Cool post Rich. Apparently Bryan Baker uses that concept as well for playing "outside."

[bako]

Nice video presentation primarily designed to encourage experimentation working from a simple idea of 7 principal notes and 5 auxiliary.

Expanding on that idea: What notes are left over from the basic collection in use?

C D E F G A B + Gb Ab Bb Db Eb-----------C Major + Gb Pentatonic (1 2 3 5 6)

C D Eb F G A B + F# G# A# C# E----------C Melodic Minor + F# Pentatonic (1 2 3 5 b7)

C D Eb F G Ab B + A Bb C# E F#-----------C Harmonic Minor + A Pentatonic (1 b2 3 5 6)

C D E F G Ab B + A Bb C# Eb F#-----------C Harmonic Major + A Pentatonic (1 b2 3 b5 6)

C D E F# G# Bb + Db Eb F G A B-----------C Whole Tone + Db Whole Tone (1 2 3 #4 b7)

C Db Eb Fb Gb G A Bb + B D F Ab-----------C Diminished + Bdim (1 b3 b5 bb7)

Hexatonics conceived from a triad/chord pair partners with another triad/chord pair

C Db E F G A (C and Db+ C E G / Db F A) + D Eb F# Ab Bb Cb (Abm and Bb+ Ab Cb Eb / Bb D F#)

C Eb F Gb G Bb (Csus and Ebm C F G / Eb Gb Bb) + A B C# D E G# ( A and G#dim A C# E / G# B D )
C Blues Scale + A Major no 6th (1 2 3 4 5 7)

This way of thinking is kind of a "chromatic modal compression" idea.

I don't know how best to name alternative pentatonic formations, so I didn't venture into that territory.