Major triad starting on the 9th

[S_R_S5]

I'v seen a lot of jazz players play minor triads starting on the 9th scale degree, but I transcribed a John Scofield tune recently and I noticed he played a major arpeggio starting on the 9th. It was over a major seven chord. I was just wondering how common is this? I know its just a lydian thing, but i'v never seen it like this before.

Thanks

[JensL]

Fairly common, you get that on Dom7th chords too.

Jens

[kris]

I'v seen a lot of jazz players play minor triads starting on the 9th scale degree, but I transcribed a John Scofield tune recently and I noticed he played a major arpeggio starting on the 9th. It was over a major seven chord. I was just wondering how common is this? I know its just a lydian thing, but i'v never seen it like this before.

Thanks

it is from C maj7 arrpegio.

[FatJeff]

Very very common, one of the first "tricks" you learn when you get into triad pairs. Like you said, it imparts a Lydian sound, and gives you the 9, #11 and 13. I use it all the time.

[Nuff Said]

Very very common, one of the first "tricks" you learn when you get into triad pairs. Like you said, it imparts a Lydian sound, and gives you the 9, #11 and 13. I use it all the time.

I agree, it avoids the 4th by using a #11.

Nuff

I practice this by playing all the triads in a Lydian scale.

Example in C Lydian
C-E-G
D-F#-A
E-G-B
F#-A-C
G-B-D
A-C-E
B-D-F#
C-E-G

[Helgo]

FatJeff (and the others, too)...

Which resources did you use to get started with triad pairs? I recently got interested in that very topic...

Cheers,
H.

[FatJeff]

FatJeff (and the others, too)...

Which resources did you use to get started with triad pairs? I recently got interested in that very topic...

Cheers,
H.

Well, I'm actually finishing out an undergraduate degree in jazz studies, and triad pairs were covered in some depth last semester in my Improv II class. I can try to dig up the notes and make a synopsis (I have not yet shedded these concepts to have them at the tip of my fingers yet).

[S_R_S5]

So if the major triad is used commonly is the minor triad used just as common? Can you use either the minor triad or major triad over any major, minor or dominant chord?

[FatJeff]

Sure, you can do whatever you want...but minor triad superposition is not as common, I don't think. We didn't talk about it in the class I took, and I don't consciously use them. The power of the major triad superposition lies in the fact that most of us have woodshedded the hell out of major triad shapes, so they're right there all over the fretboard, easily identified. And when you "stack" triads, the order in which you play the notes is typically different than if you just thought "lydian."

[AlsoRan]

There is a book by Garrison Fewell called "Jazz improvisation for Guitar: A Melodic Approach." The book goes into great detail on soloing by viewing the fretboard in terms of triads.

I am no Jazz scholar (yet) but I have read a lot and this book is a great resource in my humble opinion.

Personally, I am using triad shapes to help with upper extensions of chords and for learning arpeggio shapes. It has been working pretty well for me these past few months.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

So if the major triad is used commonly is the minor triad used just as common? Can you use either the minor triad or major triad over any major, minor or dominant chord?

Both D-F#-A and D-F-A would over a C minor chord, for me. The F natural sound s neutral and the F# is "tangy".

[kamlapati]

There is a book by Garrison Fewell called "Jazz improvisation for Guitar: A Melodic Approach." The book goes into great detail on soloing by viewing the fretboard in terms of triads.

I am no Jazz scholar (yet) but I have read a lot and this book is a great resource in my humble opinion.

+1!

Great book, or his other book " Jazz Improvisation for Guitar: An Harmonic Approach."

[Helgo]

Thanks for the tipps, everyone!

Cheers,
H.

[FatJeff]

OK, here's a quick rundown of the lecture notes I have on "triadic superimposition" from last semester's class.

ON CMaj7 (Ionian):
Play major triad from I (1-3-5), IV (11-13-R), V (5-7-9).

ON CMaj7#11 (Lydian):
Play major triad from I (1-3-5), II (9-#11-13), V (5-7-9).

ON Dmin7 (Dorian):
Play major triad from bIII (b3-5-b7), IV (11-13-R), bVII (b7-9-11).

ON G7Alt (Altered):
Play major triad from bV (b5-b7-b9) or bVI (b13-R-#9).

As with pentatonic scales, you can go "outside" at any time by either (1) side-stepping up or down 1/2 step, or (2) playing a tritone away.

[Helgo]

Hi Jeff.

Thanks for your effort. So do I get this right? When wanting to play triad pairs I just "team up" two of the mentioned triads, yes?

Cheers,
H.

[FatJeff]

Hi Jeff.

Thanks for your effort. So do I get this right? When wanting to play triad pairs I just "team up" two of the mentioned triads, yes?

Cheers,
H.

That's one way of doing it, yes. You kind of have to be creative and explore the sounds, and see what you like. Personally I like the sound of different inversions of two different triads following each other (e.g. in the key of Dm, up F-A-C up B-D-G), or using the same inversion, but switching directions (up F-A-C down D-B-G).

For me, a little of this goes a long way, and I use it sparingly, intertwined with other more melodic material. It's a quick way for me to get an extended sound, then I reel it back it with more linear runs. And I focus on varying the rhythms.

I'm no expert on this. There is a whole book devoted to this by Jerry Bergonzi ("Hexatonics"). There's also a George Garzone method out there that uses triads as a basis for some pretty far-out improvisation. And then of course, David Becker.