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Originally Posted by Shadow of the Sun
The classical guitar library has been arranged for Std tuning for centuries. Since classical is recitation, not improvisation, P4 has no benefit for this genre. That said, there's no reason whatsoever a classical piece can't be arranged for P4 or DADGAD (sp?) or whatever - it's just a matter of effort. Pieces are arranged for completely different instruments all the time so why not P4?
The folk guitar idiom is based on Std tuning. It's certainly doable in P4 but as P4 is not optimized for this music, it would require more skill from the P4 player than required from the equivalent level Std player.
As for the implication that rock and blues are somehow difficult in P4 tuning, I refer you to YouTube videos of Alex Hutchins and Tom Quayle, both P4 players, who wail in those genres. Other P4 players to watch on YouTube are Passanova who is fluent in rock and jazz and Tomsmusiclessons who is a rock and blues player and has just converted to P4. Tomsmusiclessons has a series of nice videos out discussing his conversion to P4 and his perceptions of the deficits and benefits.
P4 allows for a very rich chord library. It makes one approach chords in a slightly different way and I believe it the better way. Needless to say, the symmetry of P4 means that chord solos are EASILY switched to different keys and string sets.
I wrote this not to knock Std tuning, but to sing the praises of P4. Everyone gets to choose their path and this is what makes the world a better place.
To each his own.
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02-23-2012 03:43 PM
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4thstuning: hey, don't worry, that's cool. I have no issues with you supporting your tuning of choice- there are a fair few players who use an unconventional tuning for their music. Stanley Jordan, for one, and perhaps Pierre Bensusan.
The main reason I was posting was that I wanted to refute jster's comment that standard tuning was disgusting; while it's a subjective comment, I do think it's overstating things, and I thought he was slightly overplaying his hand by focussing on the symmetry of P4.
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For me it was like "inventing America", when I came home from a gig with a bass player, who played a 6 string bass. I decided to retune my guitar the same. Thanks to the internet i saw that that wasn't who invented such a thing. This reminds me the sutiation with 10 hole harmonica tunings where there's a lot of options besides Richter tuning( the most used). It has a great blues tradition but it's hard to play in different keys. So there are some modification to richter tuning or even a differrent layouts of notes. But unfortunatelly there are only small amount of players who use that tunings. Even if alternative tuning, such as diminished or augmented( wholetone) tuning allows to play chromatically on a 10 hole harp. You can not play Little Walter line on a diminished tuning exactly as he did, but you can play in any key on one harp.
Back to guitar, I think it's a matter of try and see if you like it. I did and like what i got, even i still have to relearn some chord grips and have mistakes on gigs.But it's getting much better now. I also have an experience of a strange attitude from players around me when they see i'm playing a "wrong" chord( actually only a grip looks strange e.g. major triad looks like minor in std tuning). May be there's another thing that i like with P4. I do not like to be usual. So I'm not in mainstream : I use linux instead of windows, i play diminished tuned harp and P4.
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I'm learning to play P4. Feels great.
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After just a couple days of using P4, I'm really won over, and I can't imagine ever wanting to switch back to standard. The switch over is disorienting for a time, but it actually helped purge some of my rote vocabulary and gave me access to some much needed new material. It's not totally without flaws; some things become trickier with this tuning, but the advantage of being able to treat every set of strings the same way is incredibly liberating. It feels like playing a new instrument. If the fretboard in standard tuning is a landscape, the fretboard in P4 is an ocean, expansive and unobstructed. Very refreshing.
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Does anybody have some clips or examples of very proficient, creative professional players playing with the P4 tuning? (ideally players that are not posting in this thread )
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Here's a video of Stanley Jordan, who uses P4 to facilitate his two handed tapping approach on guitar.
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How about somebody who plays one guitar at a time?
(Yes, I know SJ plays one guitar at times too, but maybe let's just leave two-handed-tappers out, for discussion's sake.)
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If you're looking for famous players, you won't find any other than Jordan. However, earlier in this thread I mentioned other non-famous 4ths players who haven't participated in this discussion.
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Originally Posted by JakeAcci
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03-08-2012, 06:41 AM #36Nuff Said GuestOriginally Posted by JakeAcci
Nuff
Just listen to this:
Maybe a bit too much reverb?Last edited by Nuff Said; 03-08-2012 at 06:49 AM. Reason: Maybe a bit too much reverb?
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Hey that Hutchings guy is a good fusion/shredder...very much in that Guthrie Govan style.
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Originally Posted by JakeAcci
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I have switched over to 4ths tuning. I struggled with it for months, because I also play classical and pop, and wanted to keep standard tuning for them, and then wanted to have all my playing in one tuning.
But the more I got into jazz (I only started in December), the more apparent it was that 4ths or "F" tuning was the way to go. The deciding factor was getting the Real Book and seeing the frequency of chord changes in a lot of tunes!
The beauty of 4ths is that anything you learn on one part of the guitar reinforces the rest of the guitar. Also I'm finding that when I transcribe, patterns of arpeggios and triads really jump out much more. So I'm staying with F tuning for jazz and E tuning for everything else.
Going back to E for classical was a bit of a concern, but I'm mostly just using tabs for that, I do all my note-reading in jazz, using the 4ths note map. And the 4ths note map is a better one anyway, you always have the same notes next to each other.
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I re-started playing the guitar about two years ago after a 30-year layoff. I experimented with alternative tunings, and I have become a big fan of regular tunings (in which chord shapes remain the same as you move your fingers both along and across the fretboard).
IMHO, the two best regular tunings are P4 and M3. While I was learning these, I documented what I learned in two tutorials and have made them freely available online at www.keith.bromley.name . They describe the pros and cons of both P4 and M3 tunings and show fingerings for a lot of simple chords. Feel free to give me feedback on anything that I have missed.
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A jazz-guitarist added Dr. Bromley's tutorials as external resources for the Wikipedia articles on all perfect-fourths and major-thirds tunings:
Also, Keith's tutorials each contain a (seemingly) comprehensive list of links to on-line resources.Last edited by Kiefer.Wolfowitz; 11-18-2013 at 05:55 AM. Reason: URLs for Wikipedia articles linking to Keith Bromley's tutorials on M3 and P4 tunings
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Originally Posted by Keith Bromley
Guy
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I tried P4 tuning recently and it was like a revelation to me. I didn't quite realize before, how much I was struggling due to the assemetry... but I've realized it's actually my biggest complaint about guitar.
Suddenly, I can much better play the lines I hear in my head. I feel more connected to the guitar. I feel refreshed and motivated again.
Yes there will be things I have to re-learn, but I think it will be worth it.
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Maaaan, I am so late to this party!
Gonna give a little bump here ...any other P4 players lurking/still lurking around here?
I switched over a year ago and probably won't go back anytime soon, if at all.
Being primarily a bass player, this demystified the guitar for me pretty quickly.
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What's the problem with the traditional tuning? Anybody tried ear training before looking for alternative in tuning?
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LOL...that's some hot jive there.
The answer is symmetry, it's a very practical tuning...check out the rest of the thread, there are actually a lot of thoughts on the subject here.
I also played for 20+ years and studied classical guitar before switching.
I am missing how the spatial layout of the fretboard and ear training are so intertwined. ...notes sound the same regardless of tuning.
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Originally Posted by basscadet
The point is, it doesn't solve anything technical.
It might give you alternative sounds, the chords would sound different, etc. So sonic- wise yes! totally!
But I see it's mostly talking from 'making the fretboard easier' point of view here- well, yeah, sure.
Have you play any other string instruments? Violin? Banjo? How's P5 working out?
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i play double bass and bass guitar so the p4 thing really worked out for me. ...for what i do personally, it really works well. i improvise a lot and don't really need to use big voicings. i also feel like single note lines flow more smoothly for me...it might be psychosomatic.
though i started with standard tuning, i also spent a lot of time playing solo acoustic guitar using DADGAD, open D, and lots of other tunings so I am kinda used to moving things around; it's helped me to maintain an elastic mindset as far as the fretboard.
As far as how chords sound...a G7 will always be GBDF ...I could use that same shape and get a different sound if I change tunings, but I am not really playing a G7, just using a finger shape. ...it's probably just semantics/boils down to how you approach things at this point.
however, I will add, if i was going to go into a really traditional project, i think i would go back to standard.
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The P4 community is growing because, contrary to the naysayers' claims, it does solve technical problems, it does makes the fretboard map much easier, and it's a very chord friendly tuning too. Finally, it makes perfect sense. Don't let the nabobs of negativity dissuade you.
While this forum is great for all things jazz and guitar, it is not a great forum for P4 discussions. I recommend joining a P4 specific group for friendly discourse on the subject. The one I know of is a facebook group, "Guitar Tuning in Fourths": Guitar Tuning in 4ths Public Group | Facebook There you will find a mix of styles and abilities with many resources to help you with your journey.
Good luck
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In response to the OP - Ant Law
Billy Strayhorn voicings - VIDEO
Today, 08:32 AM in Comping, Chords & Chord Progressions