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i would add "listen it" to this (although it's awkward sounding). i can't believe that 60 years after the beginnings of bossa nova, many jazz musicians still wing it through brazilian tunes, which they call "latin." often, they (the guitarists especially) play nondescript approximations of "latin" rhythms, which they use for all songs that come from "south of the border." they drive me cah-razy!
Originally Posted by JonnyPac
Last edited by patskywriter; 11-07-2011 at 11:00 AM.
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11-07-2011 10:57 AM
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So true and definitely guilty on my part! Originally Posted by patskywriter
i would add "listen it" to this (although it's awkward sounding). i can't believe that 60 years after the beginnings of bossa nova, many jazz musicians still wing it through brazilian tunes, which they call "latin." often, they (the guitarists especially) play nondescript approximations of "latin" rhythms, which they use for all songs that come from "south of the border." they drive me cah-razy!
I never call the "latin" tunes, usually I just have to go along when others do an fake it!
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There are different types and levels of rhythm playing. There are accent patterns that groove... Some have a type of repeating concept... that doesn't change the pulse... and obviously some that change the pulse. Then there are accent patterns that try and groove... mechanically... what ever you come up with... usually pretty lame. Can be helped with great rhythmic players...
The next level of rhythmic playing is where we play on or off the beat or accent pattern. This is the part where feel becomes involved... you can use techniques to help become aware of feel... but it really doesn't lock through mechanics.
The feel...the rhythmic patterns of where and how we play on or off the beat ... are also somewhat like an accent pattern.
If you don't play latin or brazilian tunes well, it's usually because you don't understand the concept of rhythm being implied. Again you start with the accent pattern... the clave. A two part or binary rhythmic pattern. Usually a strong measure with 3 accent notes and week measure with 2 accent notes, hence the term "three-two" or if the clave is turned around, a "two-three". The 6/8 clave is a seven note pattern. Most latin and brazilian musia today is witten in 4/4 cut time. Once claves are implied... they don't turnaround with out a compositional design. To determine the direction of the clave... listen for the strong three note pattern, also called the "tresillo".
The Brazilian clave is similar to the cuban or latin clave accent pattern in it's function, usually similar to a Son Clave with the last note of pattern being syncopated, on a 3-2, instead of last accent note being downbeat of 3, becomes + of 3.
Then comes that feel part... where and how we play on or off the beat, the accent pattern.
If your still having problems with simply being able to play or read rhythmic patterns... Get the LouisBellson books I posted above... there not perfect and you might fine something better... But they work, have worked and are accepted standards. We're talking about one of the basic skills of playing of playing music... and even more so with jazz.
If you need latin guides... Rebeca Mauleon's books are great, they work... for actually playing latin music.
For Brazilian... get Antonio Adolfo's Brazilian Music Workshop and Nelson Faria's The Brazilian Guitar Book, all from Sher Music Co. all very professional. There all around, new and used. Reg
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Thanks Reg, I'm aware of the theories of clave and such, I just haven't listened to enough music from these different countries to feel the rhythms properly. Latin rhythms aren't really a priority right now.
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Great thread, Jake.
Something that I've just sort of naturally keyed-in on in the past few months is the rhythmic cadence of peoples' natural speech patterns, and I've noticed that most people don't have an underlying meter or pulse to their speech -- perhaps call a person's natural speech rhythm to be "rubato", for loose definitions of rubato...
It's interesting to me from both a musical and linguistic standpoint the way different people tend to articulate and syncopate their vocal syllables and pauses -- I sometimes try to imagine notes on a stave to figure out the rests, the ties, the syncopation, etc.. I wonder if people go go into radio or TV broadcasting work ever need to devote special attention to their vocal rhythmic cadences.
Just a different train of thought.
That said, is anyone else here a human beatbox? Probably the single cheapest rhythm device ever conceived, and despite its [mostly social] shortcomings, IMO it's a great way to internalize a sense of time, plus it can be done anywhere (within reason)
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Hey Jake...cool, wasn't really directing comments towards you, more in general to all. There's no holy grail for most musicianship skill. Simple putting in the organized required time on technique or application. Most seem to spend more time and energy looking for the perfect source. Originally Posted by JakeAcci
Getting back to clave... the feel is that next rhythmic level of performance of being aware of where and how your playing on or off the beat. Listening will get you there, but with out being aware of that concept... it takes a while... there are a lot of feels... Reg
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Wow. Thanks for the fresh air. I've been beating myself up really hard this week trying to wrap my head around all of this. I listened to him in the late 70's on the All of You displacement example and then switched back to some classic performances from 1965. I personally like the late 50's and 60's work far more than his later years. He had a great feel that rings in my bones during most of that era, despite having not yet "matured" all the use of displacement and inner voices. I was unaware that he really rushed and Gomez left over it- do you have more information you can share? Originally Posted by Richb
And by the way, what does "playing over the measure line" really mean??? Don't all competent jazz musicians play over the bar? Did Louis Armstrong, Bird, and other seminal jazzers not play over the bar line? Why should any one jazz musician get more credit for this than another? If jazz had no push, pull, and syncopation (all which can occur on any beat) it wouldn't be jazz at all, IMHO. If I am missing something, PLEASE let me know. I am really frustrated with "so and so can play over the bar line" statements!!!Last edited by JonnyPac; 11-10-2011 at 12:40 AM.
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JP ya gotta stop this - it was ALL OF YOU. I'm sure Bill wouldn't have been too happy to play All of Me.
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Oops. Got it fixed.
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Great thread...one thing I do is to play the rhythm of bop heads without the notes ie play Confirmation on one note. it opens a world of rhythms, and another thing for overall time keeping is skanking along with Bob Marley and the Wailers, great for voicings and it's not as easy as it seems, along with learning Family Man's bass lines, that rhythmic approach is pretty tight and syncopated. Also singing and playing in time, even simple kid's tunes really helps with overall time keeping and locking in the groove, makes the time come from my body instead of the head so to speak...
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Additional thought - super simple exercise for keeping good time/rhythmic consciousness etc - try to solo only using 8th note upbeats. Easier to do at slower tempos, so the challenge is to see how quick you can get the tempo without everything falling apart. The tendency will be to want to put some of the notes on the downbeats...
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I think that if you look at how Bill Evans plays one chord a beat more and the next 3 less, you'll find that it is a very present part of his style to move the harmonic rhythm around. You have example of Bird and others doing that, but not nearly as much(I think Bird mostly did resolving V later?). That is why it is a major part of Bil Evans style and not so much a defining character of bop in general. Originally Posted by JonnyPac
I think cross-rhythms should be on the list too. F.ex how he used dotted quarter notes for long stretches in songs was quite new as far as I know. Maybe parallel to Coltrane/Tyner stuff? But quite an important part of his style.
Jens
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Nice. Thanks!
I'm back in the shed trying all of this. Phew... Come on muscle-memory! I want this stuff internalized and ON DEMAND.
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Joao Gilberto.
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What about him? Great player, great syncopation and synchronization between voice and guitar. Originally Posted by ronjazz
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The only thing better than a one-word answer is a one-name answer. lol I think this was in reference to the "latin" jazz comping.
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I'm a little late to this thread but it's a great one. Thanks for the ideas about working on time feel, keep them coming!
In terms of Bill Evans, I love his masterful inside voice leading but don't like his sense of swing at all. I often feel his accents on the one and it makes me crazy: Da-da-Da-da-Da. Ick.
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I love this thread.....I wish this board would have a rhythm only section. No harmony allowed or it will be deleted.
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Hard to play jazz without a rhythm section! Hi-yo!
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The Berklee Guitar Series has a rhythmic study book (William Leavett) and is of great help to those seeking more rhythmic variation...
Charles Colin (New York) also has a great book and rhythm as well aas a great book on Chords & Progressions..
Check these out..
Time on the instrument..pierre
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I take issue with all this quasi Bill Evans "bashing". Especially saying Eddie Gomez left because of Bills "rushing". First of all Gomez rushed like a freak on almost everything I've heard starting in '65 when he joined. So theres that. Secondly, he stayed with Bill for 11 years. So it must not have been THAT bad. Thirdly, Bill is one of (if not THE) the most rhythmically advanced players of his generation. Without bill probably no Herbie, Jarrett, Hersch, Mehldau, etc...
What people may be hearing...Bill wasn't really a bluesy guy. In fact he was afraid of the blues. But so what. Thirdly, there are a lot of players that play just as straight as Bill and don't get talked about. In fact they talk about how swinging they are. Bill did rush when he was coked up. Worst when he was getting coked with Philly Joe, but overall. There is a difference between rushing and playing on top...not rushing.
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mattymel, I am in agreement. The whole band rushed from time to time, no doubt aided by stimulants. One thing that Evans had was boundless, endless creativity, very few pet licks, and very long phrases that came from being a master of the instrument.
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I agree too. Bill is still my hero.
I don't like the idea of discussing rhythm without harmony. I firmly believe that the elements of music are so interdependent that looking at rhythm would be a bit counterproductive. I've had many frustrating talks with drummers about the "accents" that harmony (chords and lines with strong guide-tones) can have on the time and meter though they were not hit harder, etc. Dynamics, accents, phrasing, choice-of-note, bass movement, all factor in.
A basic example: If you change chord on beat 4 instead of beat 1 (without necessarily playing it any louder) you will successfully "anticipate" the upcoming bar by one beat, and in so doing, be de-emphasizing one to a degree. Strong notes/chords are like "downbeats". What you are playing with is the "harmonic rhythm"; some drummers don't even know the term!
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i highly recommend joseph viola's "creative reading studies for sax". serious rhythmic workout.
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Licktionaries, rhythms from other countries and technical lingo are all great, but the best way to develop various rhythmic patterns is to practice, or play live. As a guitarist I listen heavily to the drummer and the bass player; I tend to lock on to their groove and find a place in between them. It is not as easy as it sounds, but it is attainable. Jazz and foreign countries aren't the only resources if you are looking for something different. R&B music of the 60's thru 80's is a good resource (you don't have to look too far to find this). Paul Jackson Jr is one of the best rhythm guitar players to listen to. He also has some tutorials on rhythm on you tube. On great group of the 70's was Chic, who had heavy guitar rhythms; another group to listen to is Earth Wind and Fire. In order to get to a complex rhytnm, you must first develop a good grove and expand that grove. I find that great syncopated rhytm is nothing but soloing using chords.
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