Modern Jazz Guitar Improvisation

[Gearhead]

A question on the Lippencott stuff, what format are the lessons in? Is it a DVD, Podcast, Skype? Also it seems like the first lesson is more or less a review of classic jazz guitarists, stuff that I feel like I already have a pretty good handle on, would it be ok to just skip to the second one?

Yep, you can skip the first one. He pretty much discusses the influences th "new guys" had - Charlie Christian, Wes Montgomery, Jim Hall, Pat Metheny, Scofield and Frisell - with nice transcritions, though.

Part II is about melody and III about harmony, Part IV is absolutely great on rhythm, am often neglected topic.
It's a video download, you can choose the platform and download it.

[JensL]

I think one of the biggest thing is these guys are thinking scales while in the shed, not chord tones and arpeggios.

Which means they float on the harmony a bit more than nailing every change...they're still playing changes, but it's not like a bebop solo where if you stripped the rest of the band away you still could rather easily figure out the chord changes.

I don't agree with that. I think you have to look at other ways of understanding/analyzing their material than playing a "mode or a scale".
They might have personal ways of emphasizing certain things in the changes that are not bebop, and not be playing the arpeggio as much, but they are still relating what they do to the chord.

Jens

[jtizzle]

now who amongst you will be brave enough to transcribe Adam Rogers' solo on "I hear a Rhaphsody" (off the album Sight)?

I wrapped practicing the other night very late (rather early in the morning), and made the mistake of going to sleep to that recording. Obviously I never slept. I'm not sure at what god awful tempo they take the song at, but AR pretty burns through it at a pace that I found inconceivable. And it is SO melodic!

I honestly stay away from Rogers, He's a great player, but I just can't stand his tone. I would much rather do Jim Hall's solo.

+1 on this. With the internet, you can live in Paris and take lessons in New York!

A lot of cats are doing this: Moreno, Kreisberg, Pete Mazza, Chris Crocco, Adam Rogers, etc. It's a great time for learning.

Definitely, if you don't live in NY it's the best bet, although nothing beats taking a real live lesson. My friend took the lesson in person with Kreisberg one of the few times he went down to Florida. I'm planning on taking some lessons with him and with Lage Lund in the future, and hopefully with Peter Bernstein if he ever decides to answer my messages .

[TH]

I would simply say newer guitar sounds... I would think if you were going to cover modern jazz... you would first be able to cover non-modern jazz... listen to Rosenwinkle, Kuthsoiel or Monder... they all have a ways to go.

Right you are Reg! I think it's very insightful to realize it's the nature of genius to evolve, to grow, and I can't wait to see where they'll all go: beyond our imaginations, I'm sure.
Reg, isn't it an exciting time to be alive? Certainly to know these guys have such an exciting journey ahead, they indeed have a very long way to go and so many undiscovered sounds to be uncovered. Here's to their long careers.
I think it's be a sadder world if we all lived our lives staying in one place, if Joe Pass lived forever and was forbidden to play anything except transcriptions of his old solos. Spot on Reg, as so often you are! Thanks.
David

[Jazzpunk]

I honestly stay away from Rogers, He's a great player, but I just can't stand his tone. I would much rather do Jim Hall's solo.

Rogers tone isn't my favorite but I dig his playing and really enjoy his records. I saw him live a few months back and he was great!

[Jzzr]

I'm listening to some recordings if Rez Abassi on my ipod right now. Would love any insight into this guy's playing and composition that anyone might have. Very different stuff.

[Kman]

I don't agree with that. I think you have to look at other ways of understanding/analyzing their material than playing a "mode or a scale".
They might have personal ways of emphasizing certain things in the changes that are not bebop, and not be playing the arpeggio as much, but they are still relating what they do to the chord.

Jens

I kind of argree with Jeff on this. The old guys really stayed within chord. The new guys are definitely floating around much more and the phrasing and technique has advanced. They know much better what can be done on the guitar. The traditional jazz language, based on chords, is not used much. Swing is dead. The rhyhm sections are different and the harmonies and forms are not like the old days, so it's hard to compare. They are still playing the chord, but they are not playing traditional jazz language. They've moved on.

[JakeAcci]

Intentionally hitting a tension on a chord change isn't necessarily *not* hitting the chord change.

Similarly, even boppers substituted chords in their solos. You can reach a point of abstraction with substitution, depending on the listener, but the concept is still harmonic - still based on chord changes.

[JensL]

+1

While they are not playing bebop lines it is still an approach based on playing changes and I they miss no more or no less changes than Parker or Bud Powell would.

Jens

[JakeAcci]

As the interpretation of the harmony gets more impressionistic, the listener might lose grasp on how the lines related to the changes - and especially to how the lines relate to the harmonic rhythm and the form. Honestly that's the part that's the most fun for me - taking an old tune and mutating it beyond recognition, but ideally keeping the spirit of the tune alive in all the experimentation. It's not a "modern" approach, in the sense that people have been doing that for a quite a while, but I think it's an important element of modern styles that's constantly evolving.

Everybody should check out Mick Goodrick playing over a blues here http://valdez.dumarsengraving.com/Ji...tCamarillo.mp3
his solo starts at 5:20. Some straight stuff but at some points they're really pushing the listener by the end of it...but it's all a 12 bar blues form!

I bet when Bird started doing his thing, people thought he wasn't playing the changes.

[jmstritt]

As the interpretation of the harmony gets more impressionistic, the listener might lose grasp on how the lines related to the changes - and especially to how the lines relate to the harmonic rhythm and the form. Honestly that's the part that's the most fun for me - taking an old tune and mutating it beyond recognition, but ideally keeping the spirit of the tune alive in all the experimentation. It's not a "modern" approach, in the sense that people have been doing that for a quite a while, but I think it's an important element of modern styles that's constantly evolving.

I like that aspect as well. I am particularly fond of an album with Wolfgang Muthspiel called Real Book Stories. It is all standards, but it is a more... yes, I think impressionistic is a good word, take on them. They do Giant Steps, Solar, ATTYA, Someday My Prince Will Come, I Hear A Raphsody, etc. The approach is almost like a free jazz type of approach, but you can still hear the changes it just is more of a loose rhythm section feel. In essence, some of Bill Evan's later stuff reminds me of that as well. Maybe that is where some of the roots of this style comes from?

[JensL]

Maybe free jazz is not the best description if you say you still hear the changes of the tune?

Jens

[jmstritt]

Maybe free jazz is not the best description if you say you still hear the changes of the tune?

Jens

Perhaps that wasn't the best phrasing I meant free as in unrestriced. Like, Mr. B said more ontop of the rhythm section than in it?

[Arpeggio]

Hey guys, I have been playing for many years. Basically my influences have been mostly out of straight ahead jazz and bebop. Lately I have been listening to guys like Kurt Rosenwinkle, Wolfgang Muthspiel, and especially Ben Monder.

It seems to me that these guys are coming from a different place musically that what I am used to hearing from the Wes/ Joe Pass/ Jimmy Raney school.

What are some resources out there that I can use to get more modern phrasing into my improv? What are some of the techniques these guys use?

I try and watch and copy what players are doing, I want to play guitar with my ears not fingers. I'm on Blues / Country at the moment not really Jazz by ear yet. If your ears are well trained and linked to the fret-board then surely new things to learn become other ways of using your pallet and not so much like starting from stratch everytime you go for something new.

Not specifically related to this thread but I thought this was interesting, point no. 3 like what I'm saying.

The Importance Of Ear Training: Part 1

My technical exercises double up as ear training in that I sing with my guitar for half of them apart from speed development which my voice couldn't keep up with. Having just listened to JakeAcci link to Mick Goodricks improv however I'm sure I've heard some Jazz singers improv like that somewhere.

[JensL]

I bet when Bird started doing his thing, people thought he wasn't playing the changes.

I guess when Bird was starting out they were not playing the changes as much, so in doing that clearly he was already making it sound pretty far out. Even if Art Tatum and Hawkings were al ready busy in that department?

That's a great Mick Goodrick solo! I wish I had more stuff from him.

Jens

[JensL]

Hey guys, I have been playing for many years. Basically my influences have been mostly out of straight ahead jazz and bebop. Lately I have been listening to guys like Kurt Rosenwinkle, Wolfgang Muthspiel, and especially Ben Monder.

It seems to me that these guys are coming from a different place musically that what I am used to hearing from the Wes/ Joe Pass/ Jimmy Raney school.

What are some resources out there that I can use to get more modern phrasing into my improv? What are some of the techniques these guys use?

Sorry I never really gave any info on the OP...

I think that mostly you'll find that the difference is in rhythm, and the types of phrases. Rosenwinkel is uisng singable melodic lines as much as 8th note lines. To me it always sounded like he had listened a lot to Keith Jarret and Pat Metheny? I don't hear stuff like that from the Wes/Pass/Raney trio you mentioned. I think Lage Lund is also really good at that.

Another thing to check out is cross rhythms so rhythmical patterns that move across the barline and sound like another meter on top of the one in the song. Ben Monder does that really a lot and very well!

I have some Monder and some Rosenwinkel transcriptions on my website if you want to check it out: http://jenslarsen.nl/TranscriptionsEng.html

Jens

[JakeAcci]

I guess when Bird was starting out they were not playing the changes as much, so in doing that clearly he was already making it sound pretty far out. Even if Art Tatum and Hawkings were al ready busy in that department?

Ah yes, I'm pretty bad in the musical history department, woops.

That's a great Mick Goodrick solo! I wish I had more stuff from him.

well here's a lot of it for free: Casa Valdez Studios: Jimmy Mosher- A True Voice

I love these sessions, so raw. i think they might be my favorite jazz guitar recordings in my collection. What Mick does with these tunes is out of this world.

Also, a recent clip I saw, sound quality is pretty bad but the playing is just tops as far as I'm concerned:

[JakeAcci]

A little off topic but when I was about 14 I was really into progressive/composed instrumental rock. I liked Steve Vai, Dixie Dregs, you guys know Jon Finn?

I went to a clinic/performance at Berklee at that time where Jon Finn played a set and talked a bit, then Mick Goodrick did the same.

I remember being so aggravated at Mick Goodrick's playing - it didn't make any sense! It just sounded like disconnected noodling and I didn't understand how he expected to connect to the listener. There were some kids my age sitting next to me with their jaws agape and I remember being so pissed off that people were actually applauding and supporting this "music."

Of course I enjoyed all of Jon Finn's very accessible rock set.

Now I can't stand listening to Jon Finn (feels like I'm being hit over the head with a blunt object,) but I want as much Mick as I can get!

Funny how tastes change - our tolerance and interest in things that are more "obscure..."

[jmstritt]

Sorry I never really gave any info on the OP...

I think that mostly you'll find that the difference is in rhythm, and the types of phrases. Rosenwinkel is uisng singable melodic lines as much as 8th note lines. To me it always sounded like he had listened a lot to Keith Jarret and Pat Metheny? I don't hear stuff like that from the Wes/Pass/Raney trio you mentioned. I think Lage Lund is also really good at that.

Another thing to check out is cross rhythms so rhythmical patterns that move across the barline and sound like another meter on top of the one in the song. Ben Monder does that really a lot and very well!

I have some Monder and some Rosenwinkel transcriptions on my website if you want to check it out: Jazz guitar Transcriptions - Kurt Rosenwinkel, Jim Hall, Ben Monder

Jens

Judging by the transcriptions page, I'd say that you have been busy! I am starting to get the idea rhythmically what is going on. It is kind of like a delayed resolution type of idea, for instance a 7 or 5 beat line over a bar of 4? Is that the basic idea?

[JensL]

It's not that simple, but that would be one of the ideas.

For me one of the things I do/did when I find something I like and want to learn is that I listen a lot and try to figure out what makes the line/solo etc great to me, f.ex phrasing/range/harmonic idea/melodic idea/what and how the rhythm section is playing/rhtyhmic idea and then I transcribe it and try
generalize it into something I can use when I am playing. I also try to find other examples of the same type of lick/idea.

Jens

[TH]

As the interpretation of the harmony gets more impressionistic, the listener might lose grasp on how the lines related to the changes - and especially to how the lines relate to the harmonic rhythm and the form. Honestly that's the part that's the most fun for me - taking an old tune and mutating it beyond recognition, but ideally keeping the spirit of the tune alive in all the experimentation. It's not a "modern" approach, in the sense that people have been doing that for a quite a while, but I think it's an important element of modern styles that's constantly evolving.

Everybody should check out Mick Goodrick playing over a blues

Teaser preview alert: Mick has a new book coming out soon, it outlines a method of playing over changes totally fresh and new. It involves a very concise way of playing harmony without even playing the root. To play melodically, and harmonically over any given mode with the use of as little as 2 triads. It's called modal compression. I should be discussing and showing some of these when I revive my Goodrick Voice Leading thread.
Basically, what happens when you start using triads melodically without thinking that you "must" play chord tones here and now. What freedom can you have to create melodic harmony; harmonic melody... and how would you do that. His new book co-authored with Tim Miller gives a very comprehensive treatment of this. Modern harmony is in a very exciting place, and it does require an open mind and attitude to fly with it.
Exactly the point of what must have been going on when Bird and Diz started playing bebop.
David

[Philco]

One thing I noticed with the modern players is that there is little or no reference to blues.
So very little reference to bop and blues.
We need a new name.

[Nuff Said]

I want as much Mick as I can get!"

I full heartedly agree, Mick Goodrick is superb and I love his "The Advancing Guitarist" book, which is a great reference for endless inspirational ideas, to reread again, again, again............................

I think this Youtube clip has some top, top notch playing from Mick Goodrick, I don't know who the other player is :

Thanks
Nuff

[jmstritt]

The Advancing Guitarist is one of the best books ever. Who is the guy in that video with the funny hair? Lol ;-)

[Tbirdjazzguitar]

One thing I noticed with the modern players is that there is little or no reference to blues.
So very little reference to bop and blues.
We need a new name.

Metheny often throws in his fair share of blues licks.