Andreas Oberg and Scale Fingerings

[Jzzr]

Hi Jazzed,

Thx for the tip on trying to hear thei intervals better. I thought that was probably important, but it's good to hear that this is the approach of a professional non-positional player, and that is his approach for playing in this fashion.

I also keep hearing from people to shed 1 or 2 strings at a time, and to look for chord shapes.

[Jzzr]

BTW Jake, guidetones is something I just started working with, and so far mostly with 3rds and 7ths on 1625 turnarounds. I guess that's a whole other topic, but one thing I heard on this was to consistently use the 2nd finger on the chordtone that you are surrounding.....probably off-topic....I don't know.

[brwnhornet59]

Nice job Jake. I drew some pointers from your examples. I like the approach of staying in one position and looking at how the chord changes effect the the original chord and using the 3rd and 7th of those chords as guide tones. It is very easy to see in a jazz blues. Of course the ultimate goal for me is to have this awareness around all of the positions of that F and play them effortlessly at will without thinking. I work on this a lot. Drop 3 chords on both string sets and drop 2 chords on the upper and middle string sets. Then working on compartmentalizing the chords around F7 in it's other 3 inversions.

Much fun, a lot of work, but man is it paying off.

Thanx for posting!!

[David Reed]

I think Sandor said it best, and Reg seems to be thinking along the same lines. We don't need to limit ourselves to playing within memorized scale drawings. If we have an understanding of harmony, and an understanding of the basic geography of the guitar neck, then we can play anything we can imagine with complete freedom all over the guitar. In my method, this freedom of movement is what we study in Exercise 1.

There is a technique that I call "Mobility" that will teach you to do exactly this. If you want to check it out, come download the free sample version of my book from my website. The sample version includes Exercise 1 in its entirety, so you don't need to pay anything to learn how to do this. You can get your copy at www.ImproviseForReal.com on the page "How can I get started?" And please send me your feedback and opinions!

David

[Arpeggio]

Surely the idea of freedom on the fret-board suggests being largely dependant on your ears I can't think of any other way around that. Singing while you play increases the musical vocabulary of your imagination and therefore what you can do on the fret-board.

To me shapes on the fretboard are like a guide for ear training if you sing with them, I end up singing scales and note combinations I wouldn't have previously been able to from my own head. Once I become more familiar with say, singing along to my guitar with maj3 and min3rds or 6's over blues, later on I can create phrases with those intervals from my imagination and relay them with my fingers on the guitar.

I think a beginner or non-musician wouldn't be able to sing improvise anything more complex than a few notes from a major scale. As what we are born with to make noise; the voice, will be closer intergrated to the part of the brain that deals with sound perception, so singing while you play bridges the gap between part of your body that isn't (the fingers) and that part of your brain. From this clip it looks like Andreas can sing like he plays...

[David Reed]

Arpeggio,

I like some of your reflections on how the voice bridges the different parts of the mind. But playing by ear is really a separate issue from the question of how to move freely around the guitar. The technique I teach for moving around the fretboard doesn't require you to play by ear.

What I was talking about in my post is just as relevant whether your goal is to play by ear or to play using scales and theory. In both cases, we can break free from all of those shapes and drawings on the fretboard, and move freely all around the guitar without losing track of where we are in the harmony.

My own view is that the real magic of improvisation consists in expressing the music we imagine, and that means playing entirely by ear. But you can develop the same freedom of movement on your instrument even if you prefer to improvise in a different way than I do.

I invite you to download a free sample copy of my book at www.ImproviseForReal.com under the link "How can I get started?" The sample includes the technique that I have been talking about for guitar, and it's totally free. I think it will answer your questions!

Happy playing,
David

[Arpeggio]

Arpeggio,

I like some of your reflections on how the voice bridges the different parts of the mind. But playing by ear is really a separate issue from the question of how to move freely around the guitar. The technique I teach for moving around the fretboard doesn't require you to play by ear.

What I was talking about in my post is just as relevant whether your goal is to play by ear or to play using scales and theory. In both cases, we can break free from all of those shapes and drawings on the fretboard, and move freely all around the guitar without losing track of where we are in the harmony.

My own view is that the real magic of improvisation consists in expressing the music we imagine, and that means playing entirely by ear. But you can develop the same freedom of movement on your instrument even if you prefer to improvise in a different way than I do.

I invite you to download a free sample copy of my book at www.ImproviseForReal.com under the link "How can I get started?" The sample includes the technique that I have been talking about for guitar, and it's totally free. I think it will answer your questions!

Happy playing,
David

I viewed your site earlier but didn't realize the free sample was on "How do I get started?". I like the idea of playing with eyes closed it makes the "minds eye" see my fingers on a horizontal fret-board diagram.

My main questions relate to ear training mind you, which is why I occasionally try and (discreetly?) stick the subject around. I think it would be interesting for Andreas to record himself singing over his guitar improv then take off the guitar track so it's just him singing like that over the band.

[abracadabra]

sorry for bumping this thread but I just found it and it has a lot of relevance for me at the moment.

in the past I learned all the typical modes 'boxes' and also all the three-note-per-spring approach. since then I decided to start the Jimmy Bruno course, which has really sewn together very well my understanding of how the fretboard works. when I look at it now I feel I have very good understanding of how everything fits together, and have no problem playing any scale in any key anywhere.

however, JB is very strict on using his exact fingerings, especially in the beginning. I understand why, as he wants you to associate a finger with a particular note, and this would be very good for someone who didn't know the fretboard, a very efficient way of learning from scratch.

but the thing is, I now have to go back and re-learn everything, which has been very difficult, and I have to spend most of my time and attention on making sure the correct finger goes to the correct place, instead of just using whichever one is convenient.

one thing it has done is make me realise that my old method was sometimes really inefficient, as I could end up kind of out of position, from where I wanted to be and had to make an inefficient move to get back. so now I am much more structured and controlled in where I am playing, but I feel can do this without having to use the exact correct finger all the time.

so it's kind of frustrating actually, especially as some of the moves you have to make to maintain JB's system are actually very inefficient in themselves, imo.

I'm sticking with it, on the grounds that JB must know a lot more than me about what I should be doing, but I hope it gets a little less strict in the future.

[bako]

That is clever of Jimmy Bruno regarding the notes falling under the same finger.
His Major scale fingerings also avoid any extensions, I don't know if his minor scale fingerings do as well.

I have no doubt there is much to be learned from Jimmy Bruno's teaching in general and from working with his fingerings.
For instance using streamlined fingering ideas for sight reading or navigating fast moving unfamiliar changes is something I find helpful.
In general I prefer to build the skills to create fingerings on the fly by combining familiar smaller modular pieces.
Ideally, I want the music to generate the fingerings and not the other way around.

For example, I find it useful also to design fingerings that allow for consistent slurring patterns (hammer-ons/pull-offs/slides/bends)

3 notes per string can cover 3 note hammer-on/pull-offs

To cover 2+2

E-----A--------D----------G----------B--------E-------
GA---BC-DE---F#G-AB---CD-EF#---GA-BC---DE-F#G
24----12-24-----12-24----13-24-----13-34----13--12

1+3

E-----A--------D---------G----------B---------E-------
Bb---CDEb-F--GABb-C---DEbF-G---ABbC-D---EbFG
4-----134--4--134---4----124--3---124---4---124

[Jzzr]

Well actually I studied JB's method and stuck to it very strictly for a long time. I also did Berklee method for a long time. At this point however I am interested in learning to improvise without any strict fingering sets for a variety of reasons. A primary reason is that I like a lot of slurring and legato, and set fingerings can put a big damper on that. Instead, those fingerings seem to dictate how my articulations will be played.

When I started this thread I was merely pondering the benefits of breaking out of set fingerings, but after a couple of weeks I began to seriously take the plunge, and it's been pretty nice. The way I started was by playing over a 1-chord vamp one string at a time, using my ear as well as naming the notes in a few different keys. Last night I went into Matt Warnock's site and found his system for arpeggios with chromatics and worked them into a simple tune.

I guess it's to each his or her own, but personally I am having a blast bursting out of the CAGE. And btw, try playing more than 1 note at a time and sticking to these set fingerings. It really can't be done.

I personally think that the set fingerings are a starting point, and the creators of these systems do not expect you to strictly adhere to them once you have them down cold.

[brwnhornet59]

Variety is the spice of life. Sticking strictly to any set form or method is limiting in the long run. Learning new ways of fingering, grouping etc.. opens up new doors and helps keep things fresh.