Scale Fingering System

**Jzzr** · 09-14-2011, 02:19 PM

[BbQUOTE=Kojo27;170425]Exactly -- I'd known the Berklee fingerings years before discovering CAGED, and the very first thing I noticed about the CAGED fingerings was that they were 5 of the 12 Berklee fingerings, often exactly, sometimes with the "shifts," to avoid stretches.

So Berklee contains CAGED, you might say. You can slide up and down between positions and learn how the patterns connect and overlap. And when you've worked a bit with techniques like Mick Goodrick's "hand carry" (or "Sitar Guitar") - improvising along just one string, and then giving yourself two strings... then three, etc. -- after a while, visualizing the neck linearly becomes very easy, and connecting the Berklee shapes up and down the neck is as easy as it is with any other system, imo. To me, the neck is quickly becoming one big scale - finally. Heh.
..Great Kojo, thx for the reply. So at this point are you seeing the notes rather than the shapes? For ex, it is my understanding that this is how Martin Taylor operates; and one of his fundamental exercises for learning scales is to play 10ths up the neck and creating transition points between string sets. It is also my understanding that Andreas Oberg has no set fingerings, and also uses the
idea of soloing on 1 string at a time. Or do you mean that you are seeing all of your options at once.....example Caged/Bruno, Berklee, Sid Jacobs, Matt, etc.

A related note: Pat Metheny said he recalls cutting class in high school and sneaking into the bathroom with his guitar... He said he'd play _All the Things You Are_ (and other standards) along one string, to force himself to know the neck. Then he'd let himself have two strings. He'd use rubber bands to tie off the disallowed strings, so they couldn't ring at all. That's dedication.

kj[/QUOTE]

**m78w** · 09-14-2011, 02:40 PM

Hey everyone,
Just wanted to clear up some questions that have popped up in this thread about my scale lesson on my site.

you can "go left" if you want, the way I think of it is up the first octave of G Ionian, but then instead of "going right" up the second octave of G major I would go up the one-octave A Dorian fingering on the 3rd string to keep my in position, or I could then switch to a G major one octave fingering on the 3rd string, again "going left."

For me these fingerings work well when you need to switch fast, over fast changes, but if you want to take them a step further you would connect them like I think Britt said. So I would learn the 2 octave connected fingerings for G Ionian, A Dorian, B Phrygian etc one after the other to cover the entire neck, in a similar way to the CAGED system, so that they cover every position on the neck.

I also like to do the one octave positions on one string set, so playing G Ionian, then A Dorian, then B Phrygian, all on the top 3 strings, so moving horizontally rather than vertically.

In the end this is just one system of organization, I really like it and have had success with it with my students. But after i get them started on this we move on to larger scales, especially over modal tunes where there is more room to explore one sound. i really like 3 note per string, 4 note per string, and the good old 7 fingerings, one for each mode.

Then, hopefully with enough time and experience all of these systems come together and we are able to move beyond fingerings and just play keys or chords.

Nowadays I think of key signatures most of the time, so if I'm jamming on A7 I think 2 sharps and those notes pop up on the neck, but it's taken me 17 years of practicing and playing gigs to get to the point where I'm moving beyond shapes and grips.

But, it's the grips and shapes and different systems that got me to this point.

All that to say, each system has its pros and cons, i suggest to my students that they explore as many systems as they can until they A)find one that fits perfectly for them or B) mix and match the different systems to find an approach that works for them.

hope that helps clear some of those questions up and didn't just muddy the waters further! lol

**m78w** · 09-14-2011, 02:43 PM

oh, and I'm a huge fan of Pat Martino's 5 positions that he uses in Linear Expressions, those really helped me get a solid bebop vocabulary when I was first starting out as well.

**whatswisdom** · 09-14-2011, 03:09 PM

Originally Posted by Jzzr

...ability to see voice-leading is easier with the Berklee system...a 5 fingering system however...is easier to see length-wise up the neck...Berklee system...seemed best suited for playing within just a few frets. ... Those 5 basic fingerings pretty much are part of the 12 Berklee fingerings, and could now use the 5 more basic shapes to help see up the neck.

I learned the Aaron Shearer fingerings, which he calls Five Forms.

Major Scale. Five Forms: (Left# = Finger - Right# = String.)

2 on 5 (Form 1)
2 on 6 (Form 2)
4 on 5 (Form 3)
4 on 6 (Form 4)
2 on 4 (Form 5)

Okay, I've got 3 questions.

1. Does this correspond to Bruno's fingerings?
2. Is it similar to CAGED system?
3. If possible, could someone please list a quick-reference/cheat sheet finger-on-string (similar to the above) for the Berklee 12 fingering system? (Please forgive me if this already been done--I haven't seen any PDFs.)

Thanks.

**brwnhornet59** · 09-14-2011, 04:55 PM

Originally Posted by m78w

oh, and I'm a huge fan of Pat Martino's 5 positions that he uses in Linear Expressions, those really helped me get a solid bebop vocabulary when I was first starting out as well.

Hey Matt, I have heard of those but have never seen them, knowingly at least. Are they posted on your site?

**Jzzr** · 09-14-2011, 05:00 PM

Thx Matt very much for your clarification. I am also curious to what the 5 Martino fingerings, and also does anyone know if Martino uses these fingerings pretty much for all of his playing?

**Kojo27** · 09-14-2011, 06:35 PM

Originally Posted by whatswisdom

I learned the Aaron Shearer fingerings, which he calls Five Forms.

Major Scale. Five Forms: (Left# = Finger - Right# = String.)

2 on 5 (Form 1)
2 on 6 (Form 2)
4 on 5 (Form 3)
4 on 6 (Form 4)
2 on 4 (Form 5)

Okay, I've got 3 questions.

1. Does this correspond to Bruno's fingerings?
2. Is it similar to CAGED system?
3. If possible, could someone please list a quick-reference/cheat sheet finger-on-string (similar to the above) for the Berklee 12 fingering system? (Please forgive me if this already been done--I haven't seen any PDFs.)

Thanks.

This does seem similar to at least some (if not most or all) of Bruno's fingerings, and to CAGED-type fingerings. The scales, in my experience, usually differ near the top, where they might shift in slightly different ways (to reach the 2nd octave, for example.) One scale system refers to its patterns as "1E; 4A; 2E; 2A..." etc., with the numeral designating the finger that plays the low root, the letter designating the string.

It seems NOTHING will decode on this forum, as an attachment - not PDFs, not jpegs, not bmps, nuttin. Can't somebody fix this? Below, find a Box.net link to the 12 Berklee fingerings for D Major. I tried attaching it, but you can't do that right now. (If a key makes good use of open strings, Leavitt includes that as the first fingering.)

This isn't "cheat sheet" style - it's notation.... but simple to follow, I think. He shows fingerings in relevant places. This is from Volume 3 of Modern Method for Guitar.

12 Berklee Fingerings in D Major.jpg - File Shared from Box.net - Free Online File Storage

**brwnhornet59** · 09-14-2011, 06:37 PM

I can't open the link.

**Kojo27** · 09-14-2011, 07:25 PM

Originally Posted by brwnhornet59

I can't open the link.

Try it now.

**brwnhornet59** · 09-14-2011, 07:29 PM

Got it!!! T/y.

**m78w** · 09-14-2011, 07:43 PM

I don't have them on my site, chek out the book. Worth the price of admission.

**Kojo27** · 09-14-2011, 08:04 PM

The Berklee fingerings in D major (at the Box.net link above) might - some of them - be confusing as to which finger goes where. At this point in the 3 volume set, Leavitt presumes familiarity and doesn't indicate the fingerings. Sorry about that - I'll try to find a better review of the fingerings.

Meanwhile, here are all 12 keys fingered in 7th position, using these fingerings. The stretching might seem insane if you aren't used to it, but I swear by it now that I can sail through them. Not the ONLY way - I'm liking Matt Warnock's fingerings a lot.

But these Berklee patterns are good. Too easily dismissed because of the initially-uncomfortable and seemingly-slow stretches. They only SEEM to be a "slowing" thing, though. With a few weeks' (or months') work, your hand limbers up and then they're easy.

The 12 keys in one position - 2 pages in 2 image files at Box.net (attachments don't work at all here!)

Page 1:

1 of 2 pages_Twelve Keys in 7th position_Berklee_.jpg - File Shared from Box.net - Free Online File Storage

Page 2:

2 page of 2_Twelve Keys in Seventh Position_Berklee.jpg - File Shared from Box.net - Free Online File Storage

**brwnhornet59** · 09-14-2011, 08:10 PM

Hey Kojo, Winwar can't read this. What format is it in? Can you send it uncompressed?

**Kojo27** · 09-14-2011, 08:37 PM

Originally Posted by Jzzr

..Great Kojo, thx for the reply. So at this point are you seeing the notes rather than the shapes? For ex, it is my understanding that this is how Martin Taylor operates; and one of his fundamental exercises for learning scales is to play 10ths up the neck and creating transition points between string sets. It is also my understanding that Andreas Oberg has no set fingerings, and also uses the idea of soloing on 1 string at a time. Or do you mean that you are seeing all of your options at once.....example Caged/Bruno, Berklee, Sid Jacobs, Matt, etc.

GOOD question. It's a lofty one, but my written-down goal is to abandon, as fast as I can, my reliance on fingering patterns. This is hellaciously hard, but it's working, gradually. Right now, I think I can see the neck as Bill Leavitt intended, or as I think he intended, maybe. A grand layout of chords, arpeggios, scales, and a big chromatic swoosh that unifies it all. A C Major scale has to contain a C# major scale, too -- if that makes sense. And a Cb scale, and a G melodic minor scale... It's all one big scale.

However, I want to forget patterns in so far as I am able to. I'm doing a lot of "play and say" - trying to turn it into all notes. Away from the guitar, a lot of flash-card work, fast-spelling chords, arpeggios, scales. Seeing as many chords as possible in random groups of notes drawn from a card deck. On and on - theory, ear-training (not as much as I need of this!) The Big Goal is a good way down the road - a good way.

I didn't know that Oberg was that studied - I know he's one of my favorite guitarists, delightfully creative, imo. Love his Benson scatting, too!

kj

**Jzzr** · 09-14-2011, 08:53 PM

I'm finding that the best ear training is to take a concept such as a lick or targeting concept and putting it in as many fingerings as possible. I think I'm going to try it with the 1 and 2 string concepts.

BTW, I think that one of the first fingerings I learned was from a guitarist by the name of Marc Silver who had a 5 fingering method that I believed he called the 5 patterns. I don't remember how it differed from caged/Bruno, but I believe it was similar.

**whatswisdom** · 09-14-2011, 09:37 PM

Originally Posted by Kojo27

Meanwhile, here are all 12 keys fingered in 7th position, using these fingerings.

Kojo - This is great. Thanks so much.

**Kojo27** · 09-14-2011, 11:43 PM

Originally Posted by whatswisdom

Kojo - This is great. Thanks so much.

You're welcome, sir. If anyone decides to tackle Leavitt's approach to understanding the guitar fingerboard (and it's a 2-year project - not too bad for such comprehensiveness), buy the individual volumes - 1, 2, & 3. Volume one is available now with a 14-hour-long DVD of a Berklee instructor, walking you through the rudimentary reading and chord studies. Spoon-feeding at it's finest. : ) But the big all-in-one Modern Method for Guitar (3 volumes in one) is TOO BIG. It won't lie flat, can't work on a music stand, and you don't even save that much money anyway.

Just sayin'.

kj

**matt.guitarteacher** · 09-15-2011, 07:27 AM

Originally Posted by Kojo27

You're welcome, sir. If anyone decides to tackle Leavitt's approach to understanding the guitar fingerboard (and it's a 2-year project - not too bad for such comprehensiveness), buy the individual volumes - 1, 2, & 3. Volume one is available now with a 14-hour-long DVD of a Berklee instructor, walking you through the rudimentary reading and chord studies. Spoon-feeding at it's finest. : ) But the big all-in-one Modern Method for Guitar (3 volumes in one) is TOO BIG. It won't lie flat, can't work on a music stand, and you don't even save that much money anyway.

Just sayin'.

kj

I agree. Mine lies flat pretty well. But it's more than you can work through in any reasonable amount of time anyway.