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I also can't open the file (Vista sp2 & adobe reader 10). My Adobe error says it is damaged and can't be repaired.
Originally Posted by JohnW400
Ed
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09-09-2011 09:46 PM
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If you've ever played those sliding pentatonic fingerings (which are symmetrical), it's the same kind of thing. Originally Posted by whatswisdom
sliding scales pdf
I guess we'll see if that one works.Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 09-10-2011 at 06:15 PM.
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PDF files aren't opening, Matt. I'd love to learn more stuff like this; if there's another way of presenting them, do send. If it isn't a very long document, you might be able to save it as a graphic somehow. Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
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Sorry for the late replies....been at work...sigh
The system I learned Kojo worked some thing like this:
Start all 12 keys starting with the 2nd finger anchored at the 3rd fret--(#s in parenthesis denote which string..ex: (6) means string 6) and #s with no parenthesis denote fret
C major-(6) 3,5 (5) 2,3,5 (4) 2,3,5 (3) 2,4,5 (2) 3,5 (1) 1, 3, 5
The fingering for this scale is (6) 2,4 (5) 1,2,4 (4) 1,2,4 (3) 1,3,4 (2) 2,4 (1) 1,2,4
Notice how on the high f is played on the first string rather than the 2nd. This is because the basic principle keeps the 2nd finger anchored on the (in this senario) 3rd fret AND (I forgot to point out before) THERE ARE NO SHIFTS IN THIS SYSTEM. So you have to grab the f on the 1st string.
So for the Dflat scale with the 2nd finger anchored on the 3rd fret (with no shifts) the scale would go something like this:
(6) 2,4 (5) 1,3,4 (4) 1,3,4 (3) 1,3,5 (2) 2,4,6 (1) 2,4,6
The FINGERING would be: (6) 1,3 (5) 1,2,3 (4) 1,2,3 (3) 1,2,4 (2) 1,3,4 (1) 1,3,4
I didn't actually get this out of a book. I learned it from an instructor at Dick Grove by the name of Russ Tuttle. I thought that he said it was a Berklee system, and that he was from there. His thing was to play a solo in just a few frets. So he taught us to play all 12 keys within just a few frets. I think that also he had us go up a fret at a time as you suggested.
I hope this makes sense. If I made a mistake, or if someone has a question please let me know.
Jzzr
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Oh, yeah - I see what you mean now by "anchoring" the second finger. It keeps you in position, thus eliminating shifts and forcing "stretches" -- and this *is* the Bill Leavitt "Berklee" method, same one I use. I'd never noticed that the second (third too, if you'll notice) finger doesn't move out of the position it begins in. Very cool. Thanks! Originally Posted by Jzzr
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Maybe what you could do to make this work with the CAGED/Bruno system is add a chromaic note.
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I learned the seven shapes for modes and then they all just connect when I look at the fretboard. Mind you, this is when I'm playing in one key (i.e. Emaj) so I'm not using the shapes the play in different modes, but rather to navigate the fretboard. E gets the Ionian, D gets the Dorian, etc. I'm pretty sure I utilize CAGED too, but I never learned it, so I'm not sure haha.
Forgot to mention that these are all three notes-per-string shapes.Last edited by merritt stone; 09-10-2011 at 07:59 PM.
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You could also take it to a 3-string pattern instead of limiting it to 2 strings. Dorian from the 6th string: 1-3-4, 1-3, 1-2, then the slide the first finger down on the 4th string. That's a moveable, symmetrical, CAGED/Bruno-type fingering with no stretches. Originally Posted by Jzzr
I don't ever play with any of this stuff, but the symmetry is kind of interesting. Kind of akin to the way Matt Warnock teaches scales.
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John, neither of these works for me. The Word document opens, but is just a blank page. The .pdf files don't open at all when attached to this website; I think it's an incompatibility issue with decompressing the .pdf files once they're embedded in this code. PDFs are all super-zipped, ya know, which is one reason they're so small. When we click to "open," they have to quickly "unzip" themselves, and that's what they ain't doing. Methinks. Originally Posted by JohnW400
I'd *love* to take a look at these. Maybe do as Matt did - make it a Google doc. Or "select" it in your own .pdf and copy/paste it into a Paint or some other picture program, and save it a a .jpg or .bmp. Also, instead of Word, try .rtf format. Just suggestions - trying to help : ) Hope something works.
kjLast edited by Kojo27; 09-11-2011 at 03:46 AM.
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I've moved into using the stuff that m78w has posted about scales. I organize scales by the string their root is on and connect two scale boxes to make two octave ones.
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Sounds cool, Shadow -- do you have a link to that post? Originally Posted by Shadow of the Sun
Thanks!
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I generally use caged/bruno fingerings if its a key center situation. If I am thinking modally, I use fingerings like Matt Warnocks, except I also use fingerings that go to the left, whereas he just goes to the right. But He is a pro, so if he doesn't think the ones that move left are needed, maybe I'm wasting my time practicing them?
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They're great for finding chords you would normally see. Learning them also helps you to link into the modes. The scales you play to 'the left' as you mention are also parts of the modes that would 'go to the right'
As with a lot of thing (especially chords) some of the initial fingerings aren't great but when you start to change them to a different scale or chord quality you find they become quite useful.
A chord example would be Fma11 in drop 2, root position doesn't sound that great but it leads you to F11 (or F7sus4 for those who speak Berklee)
xx3556
xx3546
If you didn't learn the major , would you have found the dominant?
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I think Matt gives a fingering that goes from a root to the octave and says you can place the same fingering beginning from the octave (next root). It implies that you can make it backwards (to the previous root) Originally Posted by Sandor
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You guys are misunderstanding what I mean by going left. I'm talking about fretboard direction. For example, I can play a major scale with the root on the 6th string starting on my middle finger that goes down and to the right, or I can play the same scale starting on my pinkie that goes down and to the left.
I thought it made sense to be able to go in both direction, play the same lick going in both directions etc. Mr. Warnock's fingerings only go to the right(unless i missed something). So maybe my idea that I should play scales in both directions is not that important. Keeping them in one direction does seem to make them easier to visualize and remember.
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In fact I did missunderstand you. Originally Posted by Sandor
My teacher who is a professional player approaching his sixties, can play all his scales in one position (all the tonalities, all the modes, major, minor harm and mel, symetric, etc... in one position)
I began Jazz a good 3 years ago and am now 63. If I try to learn it my teacher's way I will surely die before being able to improvise !!!
I think Matt's system is a good start even for youngsters. Then you can study all the rest of my Teacher's way but you already can improvise on tunes. And you will of course GO TO THE LEFT to stay in the same position.
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Playing all scales in one position is simply a matter of knowing the notes in each scale, the fingerboard and enough fingering strategies (extensions, contractions) to navigate a few awkward fingerings that occur. Seeing the scale intervals and knowing the sound also helps. It is not as hard as it may seem to do.
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Originally Posted by bako
I like it when you write "is SIMPLY a matter of..."
it depends of your memory !!!
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I took it to mean direction as to the left or right of the starting note
[chord] to the right- A major scale
||---|---|---|---|-1-|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|-1-|---|-3-|---|-4-|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|-2-|-3-|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|-2-|-3-|---|-4-|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|-1-|---|-3-|---|-4-|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|-1-|---|-3-|---|-4-|---|---|
[/chord]
[chord] to the left- A major scale
||---|-1-|---|-3-|-4-|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|-1-|-2-|---|-4-|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|-1-|---|-3-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|-1-|---|-3-|---|-4-|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|-1-|---|-3-|-4-|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|-4-|---|---|---|---|---|---|
[/chord]
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&p...0MmE3&hl=en_USLast edited by JohnW400; 09-13-2011 at 10:37 AM.
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It is simple in that the content is not complex but it does take a commitment and some time to build a good foundation. Originally Posted by Pip
I like it when you write "is SIMPLY a matter of..."
it depends of your memory !!!
There are things that each of us struggle with. Sometimes we find short fixes to get through that chord change or that song or that rhythmic feel.
A better strategy is to strengthen the relevant fundamentals so that it ceases to be a recurring problem.
Fingerboard knowledge, ear training, rhythmic subdivisions, harmonic content of chords and scales are a few possible fundamental areas.
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I don't believe that one scale-fingering approach is necessarily better than another, but lemme say this while it's relevant. I first learned (or internalized) the Berklee (Leavitt) fingerings, and while I know others (Bruno's, for example), I don't use them often. Why? Probably because I know that in a fingering with with shifts built in, I'm going to get tangled up if I decide to play a repeating "melodic sequence" (and I like those) that has to move through that shifted position. I'm gonna f*ck up. So I don't do it - I censor myself, which ain't good.
In Bruno's GREAT book/DVD _The Art of Picking_, he shows and demonstrates playing a melodic sequence (a major scale in thirds, I think) with the common fingering that begins with the pinky on the 6th string root, say A major in 2nd position. Pinky on the 5th fret to begin. The Berklee approach, when the player must finger the first G# above the root, requires a simple "stretch" out of four-fret land, up to the 6th fret of the D string. Playing any melodic sequence is possible and easy with these Berklee fingerings - no getting tangled up...
However, with Bruno's, and CAGED, I think, and others, where playing that G# requires a "back-shift" with the first finger, to the 1st fret of the G string, playing the simple melodic sequence becomes a fairly huge undertaking! On Bruno's DVD, as he plays through this part of the melodic sequence, he grimaces and grunts, "Mmm, tough," - wow! So, I'd ask Jimmy, "Why not do it an easier way?" You're going outside position with either fingering - why not use the way that's fluid and that's faster?
Ditto for many other of Bruno/Caged fingerings. Double ditto for the fingerings that require two entirely separate parts of the neck - Warnock's, I think.
Now, I'm *NOT* knocking these ways of playing. Actually, the more I work with some of them, the more I do use them. But what are you going to do when a particular melody, in fast 8ths or even 16ths, requires a move, or worse, a SERIES of moves, like the one that made Jimmy Bruno say, "Mmm, tough" - and the tempo is too fast for the fingering?
Always wanted to ask you guys about this - any thoughts, comments, jeers, raspberries?
kjLast edited by Kojo27; 09-14-2011 at 03:40 AM.
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I agree with you KJ, and I also notice that the ability to see voice-leading is easier with the Berklee system. The one thing I really liked about a 5 fingering system however is that it is easier to see length-wise up the neck. With the Berklee system, it seemed best suited for playing within just a few frets. I suppose now however that those 5 basic fingerings pretty much are part of the 12 Berklee fingerings, and could now use the 5 more basic shapes to help see up the neck. Hope that makes some sense. LOL
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Agreed. Having the ability to play all keys from one position, is an awesome thing. Then changing it up to the next position and do it all over again. I work on it but am not as proficient as i want to be.....yet. Originally Posted by bako
Familiarity of positions, shifts, fingerings etc.. let's you see and play symmetrical lines in a variety of ways. Since the symmetry is repeated over and over in so many forms, the more you can visualize, the easier to grab whatever phrasing you are looking for when playing through the myriad shapes. Though I like symmetrical phrasing, ala Matt Warnock and use them at times, I find that I rarely choose them in my playing, when it comes to repeating the lines extensions. I love the ability to play repeating lines in their many shapes as opposed to one shape over and over. It is a great way to learn a line though and is quite valid.I thought it made sense to be able to go in both direction, play the same lick going in both directions etc. Mr. Warnock's fingerings only go to the right(unless i missed something). So maybe my idea that I should play scales in both directions is not that important. Keeping them in one direction does seem to make them easier to visualize and remember.Last edited by brwnhornet59; 09-14-2011 at 06:25 AM.
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i hear you. i learned Leavitt's as well. Originally Posted by Kojo27
but stretching is weaker, or can be. not as much down pressure with the stretched 1rst or 4th fingers. the pinky in particular is weak. stretching it makes it doubly weak.
so, you have to work at it to make stretches work. (or use lots of distortion and other effects to cover up your weakness. )
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Exactly -- I'd known the Berklee fingerings years before discovering CAGED, and the very first thing I noticed about the CAGED fingerings was that they were 5 of the 12 Berklee fingerings, often exactly, sometimes with the "shifts," to avoid stretches. Originally Posted by Jzzr
So Berklee contains CAGED, you might say. You can slide up and down between positions and learn how the patterns connect and overlap. And when you've worked a bit with techniques like Mick Goodrick's "hand carry" (or "Sitar Guitar") - improvising along just one string, and then giving yourself two strings... then three, etc. -- after a while, visualizing the neck linearly becomes very easy, and connecting the Berklee shapes up and down the neck is as easy as it is with any other system, imo. To me, the neck is quickly becoming one big scale - finally. Heh.
A related note: Pat Metheny said he recalls cutting class in high school and sneaking into the bathroom with his guitar... He said he'd play _All the Things You Are_ (and other standards) along one string, to force himself to know the neck. Then he'd let himself have two strings. He'd use rubber bands to tie off the disallowed strings, so they couldn't ring at all. That's dedication.
kj
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