Using 13th chord arpeggios.

**princeplanet** · 08-06-2011, 04:50 AM

An idea I've been toying with is to use extended arps in place of the usual 4 note variety. So, in my trials, I began to notice that there are 2 x 13th arp fingerings for each of the 5 caged positions, and, they all sound good to me against any chord! Regardless of which note I start on, the sound "smooths" out by the time I've played all 7 notes (or more). Now obviously, if we were to take a simple 2 - 5 - 1 to play over, if we stick to the same arp for all 3 chords, there is little feeling of tension - resolution. But, as soon as you switch from one arp for the 2 - 5 then to the other for the 1, then you get the "shift", if you get my drift....

For example , try a c e g b d f a for Dm / G7 - then b d f a c e g b for C.
Infact, even if you flip them around it works! The only "questionable" note is the nat 11th against C, but I prefer it to avoiding it or raising it, depending on the context of the line or how I'm landing it.

I know that this sounds like I just wanna be lazy and reduce the arps I should know, but the thing is I know all my arps and I find them trite now when I compare the straight sound to the "magic" 13th sound. Even just playing fragments of the arp then switching over to fragments of the "other "arp", it always seems to sound good to me with the possible exception of starting on the nat 11th against the tonic chord, but even that ain't so bad.

So, what's going on here? Is there a name for this idea? Is it used by certain players? Is it cool, or is it a cop out?

**princeplanet** · 08-07-2011, 12:44 AM

anybody?

**brwnhornet59** · 08-07-2011, 02:16 AM

Hi Prince. You like the way these arps sound because you are incorporating all seven notes diatonically. There are really no out notes. On the D- you are starting on the 5th. The G7 is starting on the 7th. These are a lot of notes to throw at one chord. But on the other hand, triad pairing is fun as well. I don't usually incorporate that many notes when outlining a chord.

My 13th approach would be this. Instead of playing, 1, 3, 5, 7. I prefer playing, 1, 3, 5, 6. However, my favorite way to use this arp, is to not play it on the given chord. I play off of the 5th. So CM7, I am playing G triad add 6, (1st inversion of E-7). Over A-7, I play E-b6, (1st inversion of CM7). Over G7, I play D- 6, (1st inversion of B-7b5). Very pleasant, gives me the colors I love and a lot less notes to worry about. Especially at speed. The poly tonality is what makes those arps and chords so great to work with. Hope this made sense.

**princeplanet** · 08-07-2011, 02:27 AM

Of course it's diatonic, but not really like triad pairs. Also, the G6 over C is really just Em7 over C, the first substitution we all learned, right?
Any thoughts on the 11th as part of a 13th arp over the tonic? Nothing to avoid there to my ears....

**brwnhornet59** · 08-07-2011, 02:34 AM

Yes, that is correct. But I dig how the Maj6 arp, lines up with Major Pent scale. So I look at these in a dual light.

I never worry about throwing in the 11th when improvising. Now when the melody is present, that is a different bag. I love stressing the #11 when playing lydian arps. So stressing the 11 on any other chord, for me, is the same idea. Just stick to a motif when applying it. IMHO

**Reg** · 08-07-2011, 11:22 AM

Hey Prince... there's diatonic to actual chord being played and then you can move on to the next level of being diatonic to the harmonic concept being applied. For example if say in Autumn leaves, take 1st four bars..
A-7 D7 Gmaj7 Cmaj7... pretty simple right all complete arpeggios, as you call 13th arpeggios...are from same collection of notes. You create different sounds, how notes and interval want to resolve etc... from simple collection of notes.
Now I'll apply a harmonic concept, I'll approach each chord with a subV, pretty simple right...
A-7 (Eb7) D7 (Ab7) Gmaj7 (Db7) Cmaj7 (Bb7) if I went back to A-
Now what gets fun is how I choose to complete note collections. The new diatonic collection of notes created by new harmonic concept... It's not that simple anymore... I have choices as to how or what method I'm going to use to control my choices.
I used Sub V's because they create what most people on this forum call chromatic, approach or passing notes. There not random, and if you keep adding layers of harmonic influence or more concepts, what you can call Diatonic collections of notes... have many choices at any one given point. So when you begin using your 13th arpeggios... which notes you play, have implications as to where your pulling from, which implies a harmonic concept... which relates to original changes.
An example of adding another layer could be as simple as adding the sub of the subV's I added first. And I could instead of playing the sub of the sub... play the related II- of the Sub of the sub....
A-7 E-9 Db9#11 / D7 A-9 Ab13 / Gmaj7 D-9 Db9#11 / Cmaj7 /
So now when I play complete arpeggios... I have choices as to what I call my new diatonic collections of notes to pull from.... And usually because I actually have concepts or methods as to how I derived my choices... they work. I still have to make musical.... how I balance the use of concepts at any given time. As I like to say lately... this can become somewhat complex... but when you break it down, it's very simple.
Oh yea you can add Pentatonic concepts on top of all the harmonic methods... it becomes fairly simple when your aware of the harmonic concept.... which pentatonic collection of notes. Hope gets you thinking...Reg

**princeplanet** · 08-07-2011, 12:17 PM

Interesting stuff Reg, got me thinking to at least be able to have the 2 x 13th arp fingering for the tritone sub handy as well as the 2 diatonic ones. To be honest, I've gone back to trying to master the fundamentals of diatonic improv with enclosures on the root, 5th and 3rd. The dim or b9 arp along with the chromatic enclosures is enough for the time being, I really wasn't sounding convincing with alt or symmetrical scales- just the same pre learned lines....
Anyway, the point is that mixing the diatonic 13th arp thing with the chromatic enclosures along with the usual pentatonic choices is enough for me to play most of the boppish ideas I hear in my head. I feel like I need to stick with simper ideas for a while before I'm ready for the more complex.

Don't worry, I fully intend to go through studiously all your posts one day when I'm ready to delve a little deeper....

**JakeAcci** · 08-07-2011, 03:47 PM

Not sure exactly, what you (Princeplanet) mean, but it sounds related to something that is very bread and butter for me:

Basically, if I see C7#11 I kind of immediately think

C7
Em7b5
Gm-maj7
Bbmaj7#5
etc

or triads
C
Edim
Gm
Bb+

Basically giving access to the notes you're talking about, but all of them don't have to included at once. It's pretty common to a play a Gminmaj7 arpeggio over a C7#11, same kind of principle but you don't have to have the root or third of the C of course.

Sorry if that was too unrelated.

**Reg** · 08-07-2011, 04:33 PM

No that was one of my points... especially with MM, the next level is your access to many other chords or notes by pulling or relating to those structures from MM... instead of relating to one you can have up to seven sources for pulling from...obviously some end up being similar. Anyway that's one example... there are many as far as sources or methods to pull from.
I tend to try and understand concepts as opposed to the products of concepts... at least when talking about... when I play... I mix and match, usually when I hear something it's from a concept and I'm able to use more "naturally", when I understand where it's from. Reg

**jzucker** · 08-07-2011, 04:38 PM

Check out my article on dodecaphonics

Text

**princeplanet** · 08-08-2011, 12:16 AM

Originally Posted by jzucker

Check out my article on dodecaphonics

Text

Am filing this away for future reference also. Great little article and has made a few pennies drop re Coltrane subs. Thanks.

**jtizzle** · 08-08-2011, 03:27 AM

I'm not sure what this sounds like, since I'm away on vacation and don't have a guitar on me, but you're basically playing the scale-notes, being diatonic to the chord/progression. You're doing it in a more advanced way of playing in thirds instead of scalewise motion. I guess you could say modern players do something like this, playing in bigger intervals. But people don't usually stick to playing the whole arpeggio or scale straight on. There can be interval variations, such as splitting sets of 4ths with diatonic seconds or thirds. Using your example of the 13th arpeggio, separate triad arpeggios by 4ths to make the line more interesting.
Ex: In CMajor Play C-E-G (separate by 4th) F-A-C (separate by 4th) B-D-F...and so on. You're separating each triad by 4ths in relationship to the "root" of the triad. You can also use 7th arpeggios or 9ths and leave notes out also. Even mix and match. Variations spices things up when it comes to lines like these.

**princeplanet** · 08-08-2011, 03:45 AM

Absolutely. Maybe I should be referring to all this as just stacked 3rds. My big point though is the inferred harmonic "shift" when switching to the "other" stack of thirds. When you get to your instrument, try to see if you agree.

**Reg** · 08-08-2011, 05:07 PM

Originally Posted by jzucker

Check out my article on dodecaphonics

Text

Nice article Jack, somewhat a 4 tonic system used to make reference to a tonal center, with by products... Do you think in somewhat modal terms, different set of definitions as to resolution functions. Does it work because our ears have been programed to hear things even if they don't happen or are you teaching your ears to hear... As always... great info. Jack, It's all main street to my ears... miss your posts Reg

**brwnhornet59** · 08-08-2011, 06:34 PM

Originally Posted by jtizzle

I'm not sure what this sounds like, since I'm away on vacation and don't have a guitar on me, but you're basically playing the scale-notes, being diatonic to the chord/progression. You're doing it in a more advanced way of playing in thirds instead of scalewise motion. I guess you could say modern players do something like this, playing in bigger intervals. But people don't usually stick to playing the whole arpeggio or scale straight on. There can be interval variations, such as splitting sets of 4ths with diatonic seconds or thirds. Using your example of the 13th arpeggio, separate triad arpeggios by 4ths to make the line more interesting.
Ex: In CMajor Play C-E-G (separate by 4th) F-A-C (separate by 4th) B-D-F...and so on. You're separating each triad by 4ths in relationship to the "root" of the triad. You can also use 7th arpeggios or 9ths and leave notes out also. Even mix and match. Variations spices things up when it comes to lines like these.

+1. Triad pairing is a great way to do it.