Autumn Leaves Basics

[jster]

OK, so I learned all my major scale modes, melodic minor scale modes, diminished scale, whole tone scale, maj7, min7, dom7 arpeggios. How do I play the changes over Autumn Leaves? If I stick to the arpeggios and melody I can come up with something that works OK. But I want to play different modes for different bars. Despite having played for many years, I have never really played changes with more than arpeggios and elbow grease.

Here are the changes

[: Am7 | D7 | Gmaj7 | Cmaj7 |

| F#m7b5 | B7 | Em | Em :]

| F#-7b5 | B7b9 | Em | Em |

| Am7 | D7 | Gmaj7 | Gmaj7 |

| F#m7b5 | B7b9 | E-7 Eb7 | D-7 Db7 |

| Cmaj7 | B7b9 | Em | Em |


I really really didn't even want to put a thread for this. But I looked around and couldn't find anywhere a thread laying out the modes to use for this basic tune. And I saw somewhere somebody was using harmonic minor and that kinda pissed me off because I haven't memorized those modes yet. (If I have to use that, I'm switching to another tune!) So if anybody could be kind enough, just let a brother know which modes to use on which chords--the most standardest of standardest ways of playing modes over this tune. My Mark Levine book is in a box in another country at the moment. I believe that he is Mr Chord to Mode. What would he say? Shouldn't take you more than 30 seconds to lemme know. Please be clear exactly which bar you are talking about because I don't want to have to waste more of your time asking you later to clarify. I thought about numbering the bars, but figured that would make things kinda cluttered.

If you are inclined to answer with "what I would do first...", please don't! Hehe. You'll break my heart. Just the modes guys, just the modes.

Thanks in advance.

[TH]

Good question. Lots of answers possible. Playing modally, you can split the tune in a number of ways. You can look at the first two bars as dorian. The next two as Ionian, follow that with 2 bars of mixolydian b9b13 (out of your Harmonic minor set) (or you can use locrian here too) and then 2 bars of Aolean.
You get to the bridge and vamp your mixo b9b13, and Aolean, dorian and then ionian.
C section is mixo b9b13, and vamp on your aolean for a long time, your Cmaj can be lydian , back to mixo b9b13 and end on E aolean.

4 mode piece. Beautiful. Others will have different takes. Sometimes I'll read it a different way. Yours to interpret.

Hey get a playing partner to sit and run modal vamps with each other. It helps to hear them that way, and you'll think of lots more musical ideas to put into the context of an actual piece.

Good luck. and take this all with an open mind.
David

[jster]

Thanks David.

You can look at the first two bars as dorian.
A Dorian?

The next two as Ionian,

G Ionian?

follow that with 2 bars of mixolydian b9b13 (out of your Harmonic minor set) (or you can use locrian here too)

B Locrian (for now)?

and then 2 bars of Aolean.

E Aolean?

So all from G major scale? So I better get that mixb9b13 in there to give it some life?

[brwnhornet59]

Yeah, B phrygian Dom over that F#-7b5 and B7b9, for sure.

[brwnhornet59]

Thanks David.

You can look at the first two bars as dorian.
A Dorian?

The next two as Ionian,

G Ionian?

follow that with 2 bars of mixolydian b9b13 (out of your Harmonic minor set) (or you can use locrian here too)

B Locrian (for now)?

and then 2 bars of Aolean.

E Aolean?

So all from G major scale? So I better get that mixb9b13 in there to give it some life?

Yup to all but B locrian. Use F# locrian.

[brwnhornet59]

I'm really not happy about this. I should have planned this better. What's a good tune with a nice mix of major and melodic minor modes??? I'll have to put another thread asking all the same questions? Argh. Can anybody point me to a tune and a selection of modes??

Try B dorian b9. 2nd mode from A MM, over the F#-7b5 B7b9. You will be dealing with using D as the -3rd. Use D# as a passing tone. Then you can use what you know.

B phrygian Dom, ( E HM ), is not that hard to play and sounds really cool.

[jster]

Thanks bh. It is just that I just got my melodic minor patterns down all up and down and wanted to use more of that. Tuned in fourths. Lots of speed. Now harmonic minor? Ugh. Impressions is more of a modal tune thought right? Does it use any major modes? I would like at least one II V I and one major mode if possible. Stop me if I'm being too picky. I got the idea lately that harmonic minor didn't show up too often. I thought melodic minor was invented to give you the advantages of harmonic minor (tri tone resolution) without the disadvantages (minor third interval). Argh.

[brwnhornet59]

Hey man.. Don't give up on Autumn Leaves. Use the B dorian b9. Just gliss over the D, D#. It will sound fine. I was just doing it. You are going to have to jump in the deep end sometime.

=)

[jster]

I wanted to jump in the deep end!! I wanted to play a jazz tune. Not stinking Santana! Harmonic minor?!?! For stinking Autumn Leaves. Always something. Always something. Always some catch. Fine print!! That's what it is: Fine Print!

Is there a thread for Impressions? Autumn Leaves annoys me anyway. I did a stinking chord solo for this tune in 1979!!! Besides, I can't get the image of Jarrett twisting his neck out of my mind. And it is still summer anyway!

I gotta go to bed soon anyhow. Thanks bh.

I don't want to do Impressions. Just two chords?! Nah. I can't fade that. I want some changes with some melodic minor and some major modes. Whole tone and diminished fine too. Just no harmonic minor and no modal tunes. Isn't there something that fits that description?

[TH]

Stick with this tune. Let me say, when you're lining up the tune as list of modes derived from different scales, and you're still learning the scales, it does look like a lot of work. But the question you might ask is how these scales relate. They're like colours, and while you might prefer to work with all blue hues, knowing just the magic that comes from blue against red makes it something you love to use.

Just what do you want to get out of your knowledge of modes? Maybe that's a better question. And can you find it in you to be patient and learn things in good progressive steps? You do realize that this does not come in one night, or from one song, right?
David

[jster]

Just what do you want to get out of your knowledge of modes? Maybe that's a better question. And can you find it in you to be patient and learn things in good progressive steps? You do realize that this does not come in one night, or from one song, right?
David

I just wanted to play the changes with modes as well as arpeggios, something that for a bunch of sad and ridiculous reasons I have never done despite having been pretty serious once upon a time. I spent the last two months working out all the major and MM modes for all 4ths tuning. So I got all my ammo ready. And now I find that I gotta use a bow and arrow!! Argh. Its still early. Can't I change tunes? Please guys. I'm ready to go. I'm ready to rip it up. I did the patterns. Now I wanna do the modes over the changes and figure out what I think. Then I'll get the theory of why it works down. If I have to do harmonic minor, it is going to take me a bunch of time to commit those fingerings to memory.

Reg, you didn't include a link. I was looking at your reharmonization of Autumn Leaves (Is that the one you meant?), but I wanted to just do basic soloing first.

[kid deluxe]

why don't you keep it simple? Just play G Major! If you wanna try some Melodic Minor sounds. Play the altered scale when D7 shows up..

[Sandor]

why don't you keep it simple? Just play G Major! If you wanna try some Melodic Minor sounds. Play the altered scale when D7 shows up..

I actually was gonna say the same thing about g major, but I was kinda scared of starting a key center vs mode debate.

This is good advice though, just focus on one mode you're working on at a time, and take the rest of the tune easy. That way you won't overwhelm yourself

[Reg]

[jster]

Thanks Reg. I had that link up already in another tab. I have questions about it, but I was going to wait till I got into harmony and reharmonization.

Soooo, I will just play the altered scale when the D7 shows up. Fine. Fine. I suppose I should flat the 5 in the changes?

[Sandor]

There is no such thing as a song that requires harmonic minor modes. Every chord they apply to can be covered by major and melodic minor modes. The other guys were giving suggestions, those aren't the only ways.

[brwnhornet59]

it's not a friggin law! You don't want HM modes, use MM. There are Major , Minor and Mixolydian function scales in diatonic, melodic, harmonic, harmonic major and synthetic scales. You want to use them, use them by function. Mix it up!!
I'm kinda getting confused though, the more suggestions I throw out, the more confused and angry you get. I think I'm not anywhere near what you're asking. And if the answer is something somebody out there can figure out, I think I'll be happy to read about it out well clear of the meltdown zone.
Best of luck with this thread.
David

How true!!!

What he wants is to have a tune, any tune that he can shred on with MM. And some Diatonic stuff mixed with it. Of course he can do it with Autumn Leaves!!

[brwnhornet59]

Listen my friend. In the end, there is only one thing that matters. It is not what scale's or modes you could or could not, or should or should not have used. It is what YOU think sounds good!!!! That being said, tear that Sh@t up!

[Gramps]

Autumn Leaves is a great song to start with since it is just a major ii,V,I and a minor ii,V,i.

You might think twice about starting playing jazz by thinking modally. Can you arppegiate through the changes? Then apreggiate the subs over the orginal chords?

Take another look at Reg's link.

[Reg]

I'm not knocking HM... but it's not really used as much since late 60's and usually when was or is used now... The #9 is usually added, which almost gets you to Altered... and you only imply from over the dom7b9 chords... You sure don't want to use HM over the rest of the tune unless your trying to sound like a folk approach, or maybe gyspy... nothing wrong with that, but aren't you trying to play in a jazz style...
And a more important point... in jazz we rarely play a tune the same way over and over. Your trying to get to that point where your not simply memorizing a way to perform... but letting the tune develop you could go in a HM direction one time and a MM direction the next... you could blues it out the next, then go for some constant structure hip approach and pentatonic over the entire tune... The simple point... there's not one way or the right way to play the tune. You can have a basic analysis which reflect the period composed in. But if you played that way now... be ready for your audience to fall asleep... unless you really have some talent, because that's what would be entertaining them... unless you accidental fell asleep your self during the performance. ... I'll make another video... keep it very simple and very slow and try and verbally explain every thing I play. I'll breakdown in short sections and try and show options, so you can hear what each approach sounds like... then make your choice and have some fun. I'll try and get it up before end of day, last nights gig was very late... Reg

[jster]

Wow Reg. You are too kind.

[jster]

Good question. Lots of answers possible. Playing modally, you can split the tune in a number of ways. You can look at the first two bars as dorian. The next two as Ionian, follow that with 2 bars of mixolydian b9b13 (out of your Harmonic minor set) (or you can use locrian here too) and then 2 bars of Aolean.
You get to the bridge and vamp your mixo b9b13, and Aolean, dorian and then ionian.
C section is mixo b9b13, and vamp on your aolean for a long time, your Cmaj can be lydian , back to mixo b9b13 and end on E aolean.

4 mode piece. Beautiful. Others will have different takes. Sometimes I'll read it a different way. Yours to interpret.

Hey get a playing partner to sit and run modal vamps with each other. It helps to hear them that way, and you'll think of lots more musical ideas to put into the context of an actual piece.

Good luck. and take this all with an open mind.
David

OK, I'm going through recommendations in the order they were received. Want to make sure nobody feels left out. Hehe. So I learned some stinking HM fingerings and I just want to make sure I got this straight.

So let's just look at the A section for the moment. So the whole thing is in the key of Eminor except for that B7. We need the D# to get that tritone resolution. So for most of the A section we are just playing with an F sharp. And when we get to near the B7, we throw in the D#. So far so good I hope!
I got some cool riffs that play off the guide tones throughout the A section and I can sketch the changes quite vividly.

Some questions:
1) When I switch to David's recommendations of Dorian, Ionian, mixolydian b9b13, Aeolean. I appreciate the much discussed mixb9b13 because the D# obviously sticks out. But when I'm just using the notes from Gmajor I don't really appreciate the enharmonic changes (hope I'm allowed to talk that way) from Dorian to Ionian to Aeolian. I don't see how David gets this two bar by two bar analysis. We are just moving through the cycle so why break it up like this? My noodling sounds much better when I just feel my way through the major scale.
2) Why use the HM over the F#-7b5? Are we just anticipating the B7? D or D# both sound OK on this chord. I never would have thought to start HM on bar 5. What gives?
3) The melody uses melodic minor. There is that C# in there. Kinda surprising that doesn't give you guys pause before invoking the HM! How come that doesn't constrain you a bit more?

Thanks in advance.

[jster]

Bumpsky for a lil lovin.

Just looking at the A section, it doesn't seem to me that there is much difference between HM and MM on bars 5 and 6. And the melody uses MM. So wouldn't MM be preferred? How did most of you guys quickly decide on HM? And on the other bars of the A section are you really thinking about those different modes as opposed to just Gmajor and/or arpeggios? See above for more detail.

Thanks in advance.

[brwnhornet59]

I personally use MM over the song the most. But my reasons for implying B Phrygian Dom over the F#-7b5 and the B7b9, were stated pretty clearly. But when it comes down to it. Whatever sounds good to you is the answer. That's my main rule. Play what you hear.

[RyanM]

[: Am7 | D7 | Gmaj7 | Cmaj7 |

-this is obviously ii V I IV in G major.
so thinking purely in the 'most basic' modes, it would be,
A dorian
D mixolydian
G Ionian
C Lydian
* of course, this is all just G major.. so if you want to think A dorian over the first two bars, or G major over the whole thing, etc. it all adds up the same anyways

| F#m7b5 | B7 | Em | Em :]

-ii V i in e minor (the relative minor of G major)
{thinking G major, it would be vii III7 vi}
staying within G major, the modes would be
F# locrian
B phrygian
E aeolian

But notice obviously, the 3rd is raised to a major third on the B chord, to create a V7 to resolve to the e minor.
*the most basic (inside) mode, when then be B phrygian with a major 3rd... which just happens to be the 5th mode of E harmonic minor... but you don't have to think that way... you can just think phrygian with a raised third