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That was almost a detailed analysis of how the "swing factor" can vary from phrase to phrase. This is something that seems important to you, right? You obviously just feel it rather than think about it, but for me to learn more about it, I feel I need to think about it before I can feel it. Heck, that's the only way I know how to learn anything in Jazz. Mind you, I wish I was gifted enough to not need to think about anything, just jump right in there and feel everything and not think about anything!
Originally Posted by Reg
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07-04-2011 11:24 PM
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OK cool... so are you aware of basic balance factors in almost everything...Symmetrical, not simply 50/50, golden segment and other symmetrical systems of balance used in any visual, oral or auditory art. Originally Posted by princeplanet
If not become aware... it's not complicated. You can mechanically measure swing factor... right? Again not complicated, most music programs have at least five setting... more than enough to work with.
Put together a few systems of balance you like.... and start playing.
It doesn't matter if later you change your choice of systems... by going through the process you'll become aware of what I'm talking about and you'll develop swing feel... If you need more info. let me know... the more you do and the less your told the better you are.... Reg
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Hmm, it seems I've given you the impression that I'm a rank novice. I have no trouble swinging along with fave solos I have transcribed, even ones that are considered difficult. Was just curious about different swing ratios as used by others at various tempos. Now, if people had jumped in and said "hey man, don't straighten those 8ths at 270, you're missing out if you do!" then I was gonna try to see if I could do that. But having looked into, I don't think many people feel strongly about it. Unless you could demonstrate? Originally Posted by Reg
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Isn't swing from a particular note duration (8th, 16th) just an offset from where the note should normally be played i.e. the even notes are played slightly later? If all the odd notes are played at the same time, then the space between the even-odd is shortened, while the odd-even space is lengthened. At faster tempos with the same degree of swing, the space between even-odd is so short that the two notes/beats are cramped, and sound messy.
Take any clip of yourself playing or your favorite recording of a swung ballad and use software to speed it up and the rhythm will sound very funny. Swing is not as important at faster tempos.
The swing effect can be obtained at faster tempos without really swinging because no band is perfect. If the band's rhythm is off just by small amounts of time, the effect is greater at faster tempos, all things being equal, assuming the skill level is great enough.Last edited by zonedout245; 07-05-2011 at 02:41 PM.
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Hey Princeplanet... If I offended in any way... sorry. And yes, I misinterpreted your comments. I didn't assume you were a rank novice, but from your comments... I did assume you were missing the point due to lack of skills, (swing feel and how it's used in most applications). But I find that is a very common problem of most musicians. Again I apologize for my assumptions, it was wrong and I will gladly demonstrate any example or tune to help show examples of swing feel at any tempo that would help. I'm not trying to be egoistical, and apologize if I'm coming off that way...I don't agree with speeding up or slowing down, or inverting or playing backwards samples.... The feel would be different for each example. So somewhat defeats the purpose. But if playing something at 280, which is not a problem would help... please let me know, I need to post some standards on a different thread... I'll bump the tempo up on one of them.
Hey Zoneout25... swing feel is important at any tempo. What is fast to some is slow or at best medium to others.... My point is tempo is very relative to your skill levels... not implying good or bad, simply that I play at what some consider fast tempos, 200 - 240 range and above all the time... that's very comfortable and I don't consider that fast...
What happens is that many times the feel, (or lack of feel), which is a huge part of making accent patterns lock, (groove), well let me simply say the problems usually happen... when musicians, who as you said don't believe or are unable due to skill level... feel swing or any other style of tune we're playing at faster tempos, again I'm not saying good or bad about tempos... simply when someone is unable to cover a feel at the tempo a tune is being played, in this discussion... swing... that's usually why the feel is lost... not because it's not as important or noticeable.
Again I'm sorry if I'm rubbing some people wrong, the only reason I'm on this forum is to help guitar players become better musicians, (I'm trying to help you have a better understanding and in the end, middle and beginning... become a better player).
Reg
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Reg, it would helpful and great to hear you post a tune above the 280 range. I've seen some vids of yours at 220-240. Of the stuff you have online currently, is there anything uptempo? Given the posts you made, I'm interested to hear you interpret the 8th notes, both technically and musically/rhythmically.
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Hey Jake... would dig it... like Wes tune or how about something simple like Green Dolphin... every one knows the tune... Reg
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Sure, anything with changes works. Some common uptempo ones in my experience, all the things, cherokee, softly, there is no greater love, stablemates, tune up...anything, I think >280 is a good guideline, because to my ears at least that's when things start getting pretty different with 8th notes, technique, all the hard stuff
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Sorry so slow... I get somewhat fried after to many gigs, My fingers actually ware out... OK enough excuses... I'm lazy.
Here's a quick and sorry, very sloppy take of Nothing Personal at 280... I should have tried it again... but I have a gig this afternoon... I think you can hear how I swing at that tempo anyway... not much shape to solos, but playing with a computer is a little weird... he won't follow my hints...
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Cool Reg, thanks.
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bird is totally swingin his 8ths at well above 300. slow it down and its clear as day.
its not like he had to think about it. he would probably have to think about it NOT to.
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My goal for a while has been to be able to pick every note - and do graceful accents, but I'm nowhere near able to do that, with solid vocabulary and phrasing, at fast tempos. Originally Posted by Richb
So if I am playing up tempo (which is relatively rare) and I need to play 8th notes, with my current technique I will slur and pick, and try to pick notes on upbeats or with some sort of syncopated rhythmic scheme so that the accents alone create interest.
Honestly I think that's be the best way to go when slurring, picking for the accents. It's sort of "built in-dynamics" when you are slurring.
More specifically, it's become idiosyncratic for me, when slurring, to slur the last note on a string before I change strings, so that I have more time to get my pick to the next string.
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Hey Rich... yea I do or should say I can play in the old style of phrasing, but I thought that's what we we talking about. It's not like it's hard to slur or not pick all notes, for me it's much easier, no articulations, one less detail to trash. I do gig with a few contemporary Jazz Bands, I go in the studio next month next month with one to record new CD. Many of their tunes are more in the phrasing style I believe your talking about.
To me it almost seems like the phrasing is byproduct of modern technique and guitars being played. Back in the early 70's... I played simi and solid body guitars... when we were crossing over between styles... loud jazz... anyway I covered much more of that style of phrasing, but really, it was as I said more of the situation. It is also a choice... Many of my gigs are because I can cover as you call... the old style of articulating, not that many guitarist can... But we can play some more samples, even play a few phrases at whatever tempo and compare the feel from different articulations etc... Best Reg
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Hey Jake... there are times when you want your phrasing to sound like a guitar... the way or how you finger the phrase, basically articulates how you play it. But many times you don't want your guitar to control your phrasing... that's when good picking,(or not picking), technique really can become a problem. I play unison or counter lines with wind instruments all the time. Generally the line is articulated... I don't have a choice, I play as written. As far as a general scheme... we all reflect what we probable like or what we're able to do at any given moment. I always go back to... start with basic down and up strokes for down and up beats, or any subdivision of and go from there. You usually need a reference, something to start with. best Reg
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Hey Rich... yea I think I remember you posting something, you sounded great... was on a tele and I think you were fingerpicking or a hybred version or something. You're probable weary of the percussive accents, or even the second degree of accents or pressure accents. I mean there is an established natural pattern of accents which is implied by the style and barline placement etc... and when you want something out of the norm as far as accents or phrasing... you either notate or imply verbally etc... If your looking for something personal or magical... or... I'm not sure what you you mean by incorporating slurs in the right place. Generally when you mix accents and slurs when notating... for example... using a slur with a staccato dot, it's some what of a paradox, right, but really your shortening the implied rest between the notes, not the actual notes. The slur carries over, minimizing note separation, and this will all vary with tempo and skill level of player. This is all kind of BS... I mean when you play the majority of gigs or studio work... The charts usually don't have that level of articulations, most of the basic phrasing is implied by tune or style etc... and it's fairly simple to verbally explain any thing different from the norm. I play all kind of gigs... but I also have what I like and when I have the choice, I articulate in that manor.
If you check out some of my videos... I legato pick many collections of notes between my usual percussive style of accents. To the point you would think I'm only fingering... Why don't you post some examples of what your talking about... maybe with contrast of standard picking example...I'm just guessing. Most of the playing I post on this forum is for example, trying to show what we're verbally trying to explain. Best Reg
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I love playing 8ths at slower tempos like that. It's easier, there, to do wild things with the accents.
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I hear what your saying Rich... but I hardly think of Metheny as standard, the act of you using his name as reference to style pretty much makes that clear. And I understand your accent pattern of upbeats being picked. When you say picked are you implying accented... there is a difference. If your making reference to a guitar sound or style of phrasing there is also a difference. Your use of that style of picking or if your implying articulations... is not what I would call a general rule or base to start from, but there is a group that plays that way... not good or bad, simply different. I'm not sure I understand why playing 8ths at a slower tempo would be a problem, unless there is a skill problem, or difficulty with keeping time. I play tons of gigs where we play slow all night, it's basically the only language going on sometimes... It seems like we might be making a lot out of nothing... playing natural and unforced is very subjective... how do we make that call... go back and listen to some of your playing... is it a rhythmic as well as phrasing or accent pattern thing...
Like I was suggesting post examples of what you mean... we went from swing feel at fast tempos to unique picking technique to produce different phrasing or accent patterns... what some of us call the groove. It's all good but where is it going? Best Reg
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Hmm, I'd say Metheny is "standard". I'd imagine most jazz guitarists who started learning how to play any time in the past 20 years have, on average, checked out a good deal of Metheny, and it's a valid reference point for technique, vocabulary, etc. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you.
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Also, you know, reading back my old posts I might be being a little too modest about my "uptempo" abilities. I can't play the way I want to at those tempos, but I just have high standards for myself. I can get by and play some lines and motifs, I just hold myself to a high standard of articulation, clarity, intention. Certainly a stretched out harmonic rhythm makes something simpler.
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Some great playing Reg, and thanks for sharing. So you'd be aware that some of the 8ths were straighter than others and is that a conscious thing? Do you, as you hinted in an earlier post, use a different swing "slant" for certain kinds of lines? Also, when you were swinging the most, obviously it wasn't a 66/34 ratio. Would you hazard a guess, maybe 60/40? Originally Posted by Richb
I know that feeling it is more important than counting it, and that phrasing and articulation are also a big part of swing feel, so do you think it's possible that we think we're swinging at fast tempos even when the 8ths are almost even?
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Hey Rich... cool, we disagree... I don't think when we play a jazz tune we start with accents on all upbeats. And in the solo above the majority of accents were downbeats... sorry I stopped at about 3:30, maybe it changed. Use of anticipations and accents on upbeat are a huge part of jazz... but to me there used to develop or add more to a feel. Most don't play off the upbeats and use downbeats to add excitement or develop there improve. To me it's just the opposite.
But hey... there are more opinions than ours . I like your description of unforced... I also see that as a skill... nothing magical.
Hey Princeplanet... thanks, yea... I just played through the one time and thought I was simply showing how we can hear swing as compared to straight 8ths at 280... which sounds like you did. I'm not posting videos to showcase, if anything there somewhat embarrassing sometimes. I post to help show what we're talking about... if nothing else a reference. And yes I'm usually trying to play what I hear which usually has a concept, which in this case, I tried to used heavy swing as compared to straight to contrast and still have an overall feel of swing, very easy to talk about. But while your trying to use rhythmic balance, your also thinking melodically and harmonically... One of the aspects of improve I try and not do... is steady anything...
I believe there is an overall feel which is about as much as most are able to hear with one listening, and certain fingerings or phrases are much more difficult to swing than others. But if your asking if sometimes we're actually playing straighter than we're trying to or even believe we're playing... sure, we're human. I guess I could notate out a solo, articulate and phrase. And read through it a few times and presto... have a perfect jazz swing solo....
Jake I was simply saying I don't believe when someone plays through a jazz standard, they would start with Metheny's style unless it was notated, which it is once in a while. I cover many Metheny tunes, and cover his style best I can, but I also have my style. And when I cover country I try and cover in for example Hank Garland style or something similar...
I like Metheny's playing, I was lucky to meet and hang with Pat and Mick when I was at Berklee, along with a ton of other great musicians. But when I hear jazz I don't always hear guitar players, and I've always though of Metheny as somewhat on the edge of Jazz. Not what I think of as standard... that's probably a good thing. None of this is good or bad... or right or wrong, just my personal opinion. I usually stay out of subjective personal topics... but swing or straight at 280 is not that subjective... good or bad swing at 280 could be.
Thanks Reg
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OK Rich... those are the facts... Sometimes different methods are used to teach young or beginning players how to feel swing. There is a difference between using articulations, ghost tonguing for reeds, where and how you break the airflow for brass, as compared to puffs etc... all the unique notational attempts with articulations...all methods of trying to teach swing feel... and playing... as I think you said, playing naturally. There are obviously different swing feels. And we might agree on what are lousy attempts at playing swing feel... one example night be your example of accenting, but only making the accent very heavy on the upbeats... or reverse the accents and then play the Dotted 8th and 16th notational method of teaching spacing of swing, or even worse... start using triplets... can get pretty ugly. My point is there all methods of trying to teach or convey swing feel. (what some call jazz feel). You can use your phrasing explanation to play swing, or just the opposite or a million different others... And since that is now the main point of the discussion... Lets get into swing feel... when we call it jazz feel... seems like we're on the outside looking in... I'm on the inside, I can play swing very naturally... can simply feel most versions, or adjust to cover what someone else is doing. I could use reverse picking, put accents where ever, adjust the space between actual notes, play the notes in any spacing, with or with out accents, long or short...or in between somewhere. Play where ever on or off the beat, ahead or behind... there are a lot of ways to imply swing. Lets play some examples... and use notation to try and convey the feel. Pretty easy to use accents and pick markings, all the usual elements of notation... And then with actual examples should be pretty easy to see and understand... I'm pretty easy... I'll go in pretty much any direction to help... Reg
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i think that if a player started trying to emulate a horn players phrasing from the first day he picked up guitar then maybe there could be more of this in their playing. even still i think that if they became obsessed with ONLY playing with that discipline they would not be as free in what they would be playing rhythmically because they would be more inclined to start phrases only in the way they knew they could articulate them correctly. in my mind, on guitar that is always going to be somewhat limiting.
at the end of the day, i think any guitar player that spends more time transcribing good horn solos than guitar solos will sound more like a horn player than the guy thats obsessing about a (frankly) basically non-guitaristic technique. even if you dont play slurs at all, if you can get the shape, dynamics, time feel etc. of playing 10 charlie parker solos on guitar...personally i feel like i learn alot more from that then trying to make the guitar into a saxophone.
i think scofield trys to do this sort of thing more than most. its cool, but personally i dont care for his sound, and think it would be much harder for him to pull off if he were playing a archtop with no tube screamer. lenny breau did it too, and i have never liked the sound of his phrasing at all (though its not very horn like, just more hammer-on heavy) , though what he plays is cool.
i say work with what you got. nobody complained about wes' phrasing. which is interesting that he came to his sound from emulating charlie christian who plays kind of the opposite of that style of phrasing in someways. and this sort of thing doesnt get talked about much with piano players either. though if anything, theoretically they should have an an even harder time doing it since they cant play hammer ons...oh, the restless guitarists' minds.Last edited by mattymel; 07-13-2011 at 03:26 PM.
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Late reply, but I see (hear) what you mean Reg. Thanks for your example, very helpful (fierce swing!). I guess it just depends on aesthetics; whatever driving sense the band wants to convey, then all musicians must follow.
Angel
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I was just having this conversation the other day with a student. I've also found that when you get pretty "up" there, you kind of naturally straighten out so you don't fall off the ship! I've enjoyed reading the above responses, that you all for the insight.
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