How do YOU practice modes?

[ten left thumbs]

Confusion alert!

I've seen this happen too many times. One person says 'how about modes?' meaning 'I should really learn this major scale'. The next person reads the word 'mode' to mean 'mode' and goes all modal. And neither realises they are talking about different things.

Only jazzers and guitarists use the word 'mode' to mean - the major scale from a different start.

[whatswisdom]

Ionian -- the major seventh: C D E F G A B C.
Dorian -- the major 6th: D E F G A B C D.
Phrygian -- the minor second. E F G A B C D E.
Lydian -- the augmented 4th: F G A B C D E F.
Mixolydian -- the minor 7th: G A B C D E F G.
Aeolian -- the minor 6th? A B C D E F G A.
Locrian -- the diminished fifth, : B C D E F G A B.

Anyone see a pattern?

B - F = Tritone.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

If I've sown confusion, let me call things down with a lydian tune.

[Bloomfield89]

hey guys thanks for the replies.

Sounds pretty heavy but seems to make sense with regards to the characteristic pitches and singing the modes out.

I think I may have caused some confusion with mentioning dorian, but I was just using it as an example with reference to modes in general. I was referring to just learning the "scales starting on different notes" kinda thing and not really modal jazz. i.e. playing a song which is dorian/lydian etc themed.

@Reg: Sorry if this sounds noobish, but what do you mean by "In our D dorian example the II-7 chord or E-7 has non-tri-tone resolving Dom like function because of the characteristic pitch and the IIImaj7 chord, Fmaj7 has almost a non-4th degree sub-dom like function."

any other recommendations for getting the scales down?

thanks!

[fep]

My try at the characteristic pitches:

Ionian -- none, this is the major scale we are most use to. A characteristic pitch are notes in a major mode that differ from Ionian.

Dorian -- the major 6th: D E F G A B C D. The note that differs from aeolian.

Phrygian -- the minor second. The note that differs from aeolian.

Lydian -- the augmented 4th: F G A B C D E F. The note that differs from ionian.

Mixolydian -- the minor 7th: G A B C D E F G. The note that differs from ionian.

Aeolian -- none, this is the minor scale we are most use to. A characteristic pitch are notes in a minor mode that differ from Aeolian.

Locrian -- the b2 and the b5, since these notes differ from Aeolian.: B C D E F G A B. (I'm note that sure about the b2)

I'm thinking if someone was playing a Root not as a pedal, what notes that I play define which mode I'm playing to someones ear. By emphasizing those notes, the mode becomes apparent.

[ten left thumbs]

hey guys thanks for the replies.

Sounds pretty heavy but seems to make sense with regards to the characteristic pitches and singing the modes out.

I think I may have caused some confusion with mentioning dorian, but I was just using it as an example with reference to modes in general. I was referring to just learning the "scales starting on different notes" kinda thing and not really modal jazz. i.e. playing a song which is dorian/lydian etc themed.

Thankyou for clarifying. Sounds like you want to learn the major scales (e.g. C) all over the neck. It's a noble cause.

So first, can you tell us, which positions you already know? e.g. can you play a C major scale starting with root on the 6th string? Do you already know the notes on the fretboard? Open position only? 5th and 6th strings only?

[Bloomfield89]

hi

Yeap, i've learnt the Ionian all over the neck. So i'm pretty okay with that. It's just for e.g. if i am playing a song which has a ii V I in C major or is in the key of C major. Over the ii, i am still thinking of playing in the key of C, over the V i'm still playing in the key of C major. instead of thinking dorian and mixolydian respectively. thats cause i can't seem to get the dorian or mixolydian thing under my fingers and ears(recommended to sing it which i will do!)

so i was wondering if there was any way to really get it in, instead of just memorizing the shapes which i always seem to forget. Or is confusing when I am working on more than 1 mode. For e.g. Dorian+Mixolydian.

Next yea i know the notes on the fretboard, just that it takes like, the familiar notes on the fretboard i can recognize almost instantly, the not so familiar ones...i may need like 2 seconds to recognize it...something i'm still working on

[Reg]

hey guys thanks for the replies.

Sounds pretty heavy but seems to make sense with regards to the characteristic pitches and singing the modes out.

I think I may have caused some confusion with mentioning dorian, but I was just using it as an example with reference to modes in general. I was referring to just learning the "scales starting on different notes" kinda thing and not really modal jazz. i.e. playing a song which is dorian/lydian etc themed.

@Reg: Sorry if this sounds noobish, but what do you mean by "In our D dorian example the II-7 chord or E-7 has non-tri-tone resolving Dom like function because of the characteristic pitch and the IIImaj7 chord, Fmaj7 has almost a non-4th degree sub-dom like function."

any other recommendations for getting the scales down?

thanks!

Hey Bloomfield... big difference between technical skills, learning your fretboard... and theoretically understanding the difference between Tonality and Modality from jazz perspective as compared to a classical tradition.
Learning "the scales starting on different notes kinda thing" is a technical thing. You need fretboard expertise before you apply any application... of harmonic, melodic or rhythmic concepts, playing in a Modal Style would be one of those applications of using your fretboard expertise.
Your goal is to be able to play any collection of pitches, notes in any pattern,(scales arpeggios etc...) any where on the neck. The better your physical technique... hand positions, the easier the process is. You eventually get to the point where you don't need to go through a mental process to play what you hear... you hear what your going to play before you play it. We're not machines... it takes real organized work. During those years of getting your fretboard skills together, you usually start the process of learning and understand concepts...
This is a... Jazz... Guitar... Site... right.... So I tend to take for granted that we're talking about playing in a Jazz Style. It's very different than other styles.
To answer your question from your last post... In D dorian the 2nd mode degree, (or scale degree), is "E", the chord built on that note is E-7. When we play in a modal style we generally don't use traditional Tri-tone resolution or implied resolution as function to derive Dominant function. Like G7 going to Cmaj7, or how ever we choose to resolve the tri-tone, the G7 could resolve to C-7, F#maj or F#min etc... In one application of modal style, we use that characteristic pitch, the "B" resolving to either A or C of the D-7. And we make an attempt to not imply the Tri-Tone , B -F, which strongly implies Cmaj. We use the Characteristic Pitch movement to define what we traditionally call Dominant function.
The III chord of D dorian is Fmaj7... 3rd degree, D,E,F which becomes Fmaj7. And again we don't use the traditional Sub-Dominant of Fmaj7 in relationship to Cmaj. For simplicity, Sub-Dominant function involves the 4th degree, traditionally called a Plagel Cadence, IV I, the sub-dominant preceding the tonic, as compared to the authentic cadence, V I, the resolution of the leading tone. In jazz we simply define sub-dominant chords as those that contain the 4th degree, but not the 7th degree.... in any event, I was making reference to the traditional sub-dom function. Our ears have been condition to hear that sub-dom movement. But when playing in a Modal Style we make an attempt to imply different resolutions... in a manor to imply the mode.
Sorry to give to much info... but one liners don't quite cover.
If you need actually organizational methods of getting your skills together... post a video of your playing and I'll gladly comment on technique and help organize what I believe is required to be able to play in a jazz style... Reg

[Al_F]

I'm working on modes as well. I'm still new to all of this so its a beginners perspective you can take with a grain of salt.

I tried shapes & thinking of modes as 'major scales' but I think its a trap of sorts. What's working better is investing time in organizing the fretboard via Caged, & thinking of modes in terms of chords or chord scales like A Dorian, flat 3rd, flat 7th, ACEG arp etc. so for practice, I play A dorian, all the notes, then make sure I know where the arp is across a few positions.

[mr. beaumont]

One thing I like to think about is the chordal information inside the mode...so something like "D Dorian": D E F G A B C

Is a Dm7 arpeggio and an Em7 arpeggio. The overall sound is D minor, so I know one way I can get a Dorian sound is to play a m7 arpeggio up a half step...arpeggios always sound more musical to my ears, and it gets me away from "scalar" playing...

[ten left thumbs]

hi

Yeap, i've learnt the Ionian all over the neck. So i'm pretty okay with that. It's just for e.g. if i am playing a song which has a ii V I in C major or is in the key of C major. Over the ii, i am still thinking of playing in the key of C, over the V i'm still playing in the key of C major. instead of thinking dorian and mixolydian respectively. thats cause i can't seem to get the dorian or mixolydian thing under my fingers and ears(recommended to sing it which i will do!)

so i was wondering if there was any way to really get it in, instead of just memorizing the shapes which i always seem to forget. Or is confusing when I am working on more than 1 mode. For e.g. Dorian+Mixolydian.

Next yea i know the notes on the fretboard, just that it takes like, the familiar notes on the fretboard i can recognize almost instantly, the not so familiar ones...i may need like 2 seconds to recognize it...something i'm still working on

Great, so next step might be to learn the C major scale in 5th position. Same as the A natural minor or A aeolian scale. Also, same as all the natural notes in that position. This borders onto the position you already know. This is all part of the CAGED system, I'm sure if you need a chart, someone here will point you in the right direction.

Worth giving yourself time to get this new position under your fingers before starting another. So, once you've got this, you could do, eg D major from 7th position.

[onetruevibe]

Is a Dm7 arpeggio and an Em7 arpeggio. The overall sound is D minor, so I know one way I can get a Dorian sound is to play a m7 arpeggio up a half step...arpeggios always sound more musical to my ears, and it gets me away from "scalar" playing...

So..maybe silly question. Can you swap between modes and arpeggios in the same tune? Arpeggio on the ii and V and lydian or ionian on the I?

Or is it one of those "you have to listen, coz it depends on what everyone else is doing" kind of situations.

Thanks for allowing the hijack.

[mr. beaumont]

Of course you can.

It's all just a pool of notes you can use...modes, scales, arpeggios...they're navigation.

The goal has to be to create an interesting melodic line. If it ever sounds like you're playing scales or running arpeggios then it's probably not too melodic...I use little tricks like that Em7 over Dm for a Dorian sound because it gives me the important notes and puts them under my fingers in a non obvious way...it's a good starting point for creating that melodic line...but it's still just a map...but you practice this stuff enough and you can reach for it and know what it's going to sound like...that's when you can really starrt creating melody on the fly.

[Reg]

So..maybe silly question. Can you swap between modes and arpeggios in the same tune? Arpeggio on the ii and V and lydian or ionian on the I?

Or is it one of those "you have to listen, coz it depends on what everyone else is doing" kind of situations.

Thanks for allowing the hijack.

+1 to Mr B... swapping between modes is basically what Modal interchange is. Modal Interchange is one of basic concepts used when playing and composing jazz. Generally there is an organizational method being employed when using modal interchange, (swapping between modes). That organizational method can be as simple as what you like from trial and error or as complex as you choose.
Reg

[Bloomfield89]

wow very useful replies guys.

Thanks alot! Now to get to work

[guitarplayer007]

I know what modes are , but how to use them so your not just using the tonic scale starting on a different note.
For example In the 2/5/1 in C we know we can play C major over all of those chords which sounds plain.
So the question is over the G7 i don't want to play Cmajor starting on G or any other note in the C major scale.
So is there a formula for usind different mode shapes to play over 7th chords of minor chords.
thanks
Ken

[monk]

Ken,

The iim7/V7/I progression is considered to be a tonal progression rather than modal. Since you've been a member of the forum for seven years, I would think that you would have encountered one of the large number of posts and threads where we've discussed (to death) that trying to use modes when playing tonal music/standards is cumbersome, difficult and not the best way to approach them.

Modes are best used for modal tunes (So What, Impressions et al) where the harmony is static for long durations, four, eight or more measures.

Regards,
Jerome

[mr. beaumont]

Listen to the Monk.

The only other time I might think mode when shedding a tune is on common modal movements (minor to a 7 up a fifth? phrygian dominant time!) or when actually thinking mode is simpler than thinking "chord" (13sus4add9? WTF? Oh, that's just mixolydian, ain't it? or thinking Lydian Augmented over a chord with a raised 4 and 5...)

[Nabil B]

Do yourself a favor, and learn to navigate II-V-I's by connecting the corresponding arpeggios.

[bako]

II V I is a tonal progression. What can be more tonal than a cadence to the I chord.
The way that this goes down in jazz will often transcend the confines of the major scale.
Learning arpeggios to Dm7 G7 Cma7 is not an end game.
It does however serve as a good starter template for learning all the possible alterations to each chord.

Modes in their contemporary application are one way to organize different combinations of harmonic intervals
relevant to each chord quality. Chord/scale relationships are a set of experiments to try.
The goal is not to memorize and execute formulas. At it's best, modes can be an effective form of ear training
to help explore the harmonic nuance of different note collections.

Primal Methodologies:

Saturated listening, live if possible or recorded. Many cadential variables to be observed.
Teach the ear and the fingers will follow. Play music, solo and with others as much as possible.
Experiment and begin to apply what you discover. Document meaningful accidents.

[guitarplayer007]

Has anyone watched Barry Greens lessons, he always talks about modes and his lines are amazing, they have alot of tension and release even he when he is just running up and down scales.

[mr. beaumont]

Crawl one must before walks one.

--yoda

[GuyBoden]

Here's the Dorian mode from a Master player.

The key is "Hearing it"

[gsegal]

It's about the chord tones. D Dorian, G mixolydian and C Ionian all share the same noted from the key of C. What makes them different are the landing notes as the chords change. This is just a starting point there's a lot of harmony choices but this is where you start with the chord tones.

[mr. beaumont]

Exactly!

And until you know the important notes in the chords--modes should not even be on your radar.