Are 3 note per string fingerings that involve wider stretches essential for improv?

[Jazzpunk]

I have never enjoyed scale fingerings like this one:



I find the strecthes on the Low E, A and high E to be very uncomfortable. I have practiced these types of fingerings in the past but find I never reach for them when actually improvising.

Are these types of fingerings prevalent among the modern jazz crowd? Did any of the old school players use them? Can I get by without them or are they essential?

I know the more fingerings I can adopt, the less I'll be shifting around the finger board but I doubt I'll ever warm up to these.

Thoughts?







*** EDIT***

Sorry for the confusion! I did not mean a scale pattern that had to have 3 notes on every string. I was referring to scale patterns that contain 3 notes on some strings and specifically to the patterns that result in wider stretches (hence the picture above).

[JensL]

I think a lot of players use caged system which has 5 positions and no stretches. The idea is to replace a stretch with a position shift.

I have the impression that 3 notes per string is associated more with lighter string gauges but I don't really know why or if that is really true.
I play 3 notes per string mostly if I play scales in position (but I don't seem to do that so much anymore).

If you never use them then I'd when you play I'd first look around for an alternative.

Jens

[mr. beaumont]

I use closed positions more often for jazz, but nothing is not wor5th having up your sleeve.

They certainly make for a nice dramatic way to climb the neck fast.

[Billnc]

I got this from Mick Goodrick. Play up and down one string, this applies to everything you can do, arpeggios, chord tones through tunes and improvisation. Then do the same thing on groups of two strings (Jim hall has said to do this on non adjacent strings too) and finally groups of three strings as 'mini' positions.

[Jazzpunk]

I think a lot of players use caged system which has 5 positions and no stretches. The idea is to replace a stretch with a position shift.

I have the impression that 3 notes per string is associated more with lighter string gauges but I don't really know why or if that is really true.
I play 3 notes per string mostly if I play scales in position (but I don't seem to do that so much anymore).

If you never use them then I'd when you play I'd first look around for an alternative.

Jens

So you find that you use these fingerings more for scale practice than for actual improvisation?

[MackBolan]

Ups,in my opinion that"s not 3nps-look at the B-string(only 2 notes!,in 3nps you have 3 notes on any string,religiously)so on the B-string and E-string you place your left hand ring finger behind the 7(scale tone),got the 1,as therefore omitting the 1(tonic)on the high E and again place your
ring finger on the E-string behind the 3 to get the 4.
Easier played than described.
Its just another way of thinking- you have as many scale positions as you have notes in the scale:
pentatonic- 5 notes 5 positions
major scale- 7 notes 7 positions
Not better than the CAGED-system, but in my opinion more logical.
For a complete overview,go to pebberbrown.com and see the scale systems comparisons.

the

[JensL]

@jazzpunk
I guess I play in 3 note per strings too. My remark was more based on that I at the moment don't practice scales in position so much but rather try to play the whole neck not worrying about positions.

When I improvise I almost never think about positions or which fingering I am using. Maybe it's not a bad idea to start doing that again a bit

If you already have the whole neck down in 3 note per string positions in all keys then maybe try to work you way through a standard in one position and when that gets easy try to only improvise on the lower 2 or 3 strings? Maybe it will open something up.

I assume that you've already done diatonic 7th chords and triad etc. in you positions? You always need something to play except the scale.

I cannot really tell you what to do, you can better see this as suggestions or things to think about.

Jens

[Jazzpunk]

@jazzpunk
I guess I play in 3 note per strings too. My remark was more based on that I at the moment don't practice scales in position so much but rather try to play the whole neck not worrying about positions.

When I improvise I almost never think about positions or which fingering I am using. Maybe it's not a bad idea to start doing that again a bit

If you already have the whole neck down in 3 note per string positions in all keys then maybe try to work you way through a standard in one position and when that gets easy try to only improvise on the lower 2 or 3 strings? Maybe it will open something up.

I assume that you've already done diatonic 7th chords and triad etc. in you positions? You always need something to play except the scale.

I cannot really tell you what to do, you can better see this as suggestions or things to think about.

Jens

Thanks Jens!

[add4]

I use 3 notes per string all the time, and it is really confortable, but the picture you posted is NOT 3 notes per string as there is only 2 on the B string.

As a result, the fingering on the B and E string seems awkward (haven't tried it) if you use 3 notes on the B string, you have the root on the B string, on the next fret (that isnt on the diagram) and the same pattern repeats on string E. it involves a small movement on the neck (which is the point! more possibilities!!) but this shifting is easy to master and the fingering is much easier.

This remark applies to all positions of 3 notes per string.

Anyway, that's how i learned them, and i find them very useable, and i LOVE the possibilities coming from that 3rd note on the B string that forces you to slide your hand up a bit

Hope that helps

I have never enjoyed scale fingerings like this one:



I find the streches on the Low E, A and high E to be very uncomfortable. I have practiced these types of fingerings in the past but find I never reach for them when actually improvising.

Are these types of fingerings prevalent among the modern jazz crowd? Did any of the old school players use them? Can I get by without them or are they essential?

I know the more fingerings I can adopt, the less I'll be shifting around the finger board but I doubt I'll ever warm up to these.

Thoughts?

[m78w]

When I was in school I was taught that three note per string scales were for rock and not jazz, but when I started to experiment with them I realized that they come in handy for all sorts of situations, like legato lines and ripping up the neck. The first instance I heard these scales in jazz was, I think, in methany's solo on bright size life, on that fast repetitive, legato line, which I stole and use all the time.

[brwnhornet59]

I use that shape all the time. No problems. I use everything i can get my hands on. Learn different fingering caused by the two notes on the B string. It opens up easy shifts up and down the neck. I am always challenging myself to reshape lines. I am having a blast doing it with MM. Two note per string intervals are prevalent in the scale. More in certain fingerings than others. Interesting stuff.

[Jake Hanlon]

I use the system where this fingering comes from and have a video lesson on it on my youtube page.

Realize that context is important with any fingering system. While this particular fingering requires some uncomfortable stretches in the low positions they are easy to play past the 7th or 8th position on the instrument and very useful depending on what type of guitar you happen to use (335 for example has more access to the upper register then say an L5 style).

I would not say it's a 'must know' but it certainly doesn't hurt, it's just another tool in the shed so to speak.

[whatswisdom]

I have never enjoyed scale fingerings like this one:

F major scale. I practise this all the time. It will feel comfortable if you keep working it. Move up to the adjacent string and play Bb major; then up to the next and play Eb major. If you gradually introduce hammer-ons, and keep with it until you can execute them cleanly, you will have the best left hand in the business. It takes a while but it's well worth it.

[whatswisdom]

Are these types of fingerings prevalent among the modern jazz crowd?
Did any of the old school players use them?
Can I get by without them?
Or are they essential?

Yes. Yes. No. Yes.

[Jazzpunk]

The main issue I have with wide stretches is pain related resulting from work related issues (too much time on the computer!!!).

Before I abandon these fingerings altogether, I'll try practicing them slow while sticking to the higher frets (ie further away from the headstock).

Thanks for all of the responses.

[add4]

i think that if you have pain, then you have to find a way to either rest and suppress the pain (or get a better material at work!!) or, study your scale in a different way.
i don't think any way is essential, it's just possibilities, in the end, you're not trying to play positions anymore, but knowing the whole neck. any way of getting there is good according to me..

i myself had small tendinisis in both arms because of too much computer, and using a decent keyboard and very small and light mouse fixed all of that, now i can use my 3 notes per string fingerings

[Jazzpunk]

i think that if you have pain, then you have to find a way to either rest and suppress the pain (or get a better material at work!!) or, study your scale in a different way.
i don't think any way is essential, it's just possibilities, in the end, you're not trying to play positions anymore, but knowing the whole neck. any way of getting there is good according to me..

i myself had small tendinisis in both arms because of too much computer, and using a decent keyboard and very small and light mouse fixed all of that, now i can use my 3 notes per string fingerings

There may be hope for me yet!

[add4]

better technique also helped
i build it by learning the 3notes per string scales, with a metronome, at 60, half notes, and patterns. if you build up speed slowly, you might be more comfortable with large stretches.
To me, 3 notes per string, feels comfortable now, but i've been using it for 3 years everytime i play

[princeplanet]

Um, so how many of you guys actually play 2 or 3 octave diatonic scales in an improv? Without chromatics or embellishments? Once in a blue moon I might do a fast triplet scale ending on a target note, but 3 nps isn't that much swifter if your technique is ok.

[brwnhornet59]

Umm, not often but the technique is valid. Speed used to be my goal. Not anymore. One thing this will do is help greatly in seeing and playing those wide stretched intervalic arps and phrases. That's just me. Comes down to what you want to play and what you can play. More is always better when it come to playing less. The more i can play and the easier it is to see and hear, the less i have to think or struggle to play what i want to hear.


BTW, I also do two patterned super structure pentatonic, three note per string everywhere on the fret board in every position. I do it because i like the sound it sets up. And it is an awesome exercise for the hands.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

I find things like "four notes per string" to be a cool exercise:

(F scale)

||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|-x-|-x--|---|-x-|---|-x-|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|-x-|-x-|---|-x-|---|-x-|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|-x-|---|-x-|-x-|---|-x-|
||---|---|---|---|-x-|---|-x-|-x-|---|-x-|---|
||---|---|-x-|---|-x-|---|-x-|-x-|---|---|---|
||-x-|---|-x-|---|-x-|-x-|---|---|---|---|---|

Please don't accuse me of shredding! It opens up your hand and makes you practice short jumps to notes.

[brwnhornet59]

Nothing wrong with 4 note per string lines. It is a great way to shift positions as well as see positions and their fingering options super imposed on each other.

[Sandor]

I don't think they are very necessary, none of the jazz guitarists I listen to use them. They are a nice option for people with large hands, or for people that like to slide though.

[Meggy]

Like the OP, I had an issue with these "stretch" type fingerings for a long time - and preferred the cage type position shift fingerings instead. But now I am learning and using both types. That is to say, if you take a pattern with stretches, the stretch notes can also be found in alternative places giving a cage type fingering pattern. So I learn the alternative note locations as part of the overall pattern, and my patterns encompass both approaches in effect -it's good to have options. I think of it as all one thing. Plus for some scale types, it is not going to be possible to completely avoid stretches anyway, in which case why not just accept them as part of playing the guitar?

And after working with the stretch type patterns for a while, I now find them fine to use when improvising - you do get used to it if you stick with it.

[brwnhornet59]

Need? Nope. Should have? That is a matter of opinion. The why's and whats are all subjective. It is just a matter of what you want to do. If you listen to the chromatic lines of any of the greats they uses 4 & 5 notes per string all of the time. Just not like in the application shown here.