Robben Ford/Larry Carlton on static minor chords

[kimx0355]

Hi there
I´m a great fan of Robben Ford and Larry Carlton; their blues/funk/jazz/fusion style really turn me on! Now my question:

1. When I hear "Help the poor" on youtube with Robben Ford, he plays some nice jazz-riffs in the end of the song. The chord is a static Dm7 - what is he doing, what scales, what concepts?

The d-aeolian scale sounds nice and pretty (but not jazzy at all), the d-dorian sounds wrong, the d-melodic minor combined with the d-aeolian and the d-blues scale, could be part of the answer!?

The same "problem" when playing a standard 12-bar blues in minor; the aeolian scale and blues-scale fits perfect, but a bit boring in the long run.

Please help me out there!

Regards from Kim

[Flyin' Brian]

Link to YouTube?

[Kman]

I am not familiar with the clip, but if I had a static D minor chord I would be thinking about playing D-7 lines (chromatic type stuff, arpeggios, blues et, but also the dominant A7 (maybe Bb melodic minor or some A7 bebop licks) to build tension. So I might be thinking in eight or four-bar phrases.

D-7/D-7/D-7/D-7
D-7/D-7/A7/A7

or

D-7/D-7/D-7/A7

or

D-7/D-7/A7/A7


Or transcribe what they are doing !!!

[wolflen]

carlton can play anything and get away with it...i like his style alot..a static chord for several bars gives you a green light to experiment...over a Dmi7..i would use G7-Bb7-Db7-E7(i think of these as one chord-symmetrical sevenths) add the melodic minor a half step higher to each one of them and use the lydian dom of that scale .. throw in a touch of half-whole step and time permitting a tad of whole tone scale fragments..and then come back to Dmi7 and it sounds new and fresh...and you have it - abundant material to create a solo..

play well

wolf

[thenoviceguitarist]

Here's a clip of Carlton/ Ford tearing up a tune employing a "static" single chord vamp for virtually the entire song. Both players hit some colorful extensions. Really cool tune.

[tytlfamily]

over a Dmi7..i would use G7-Bb7-Db7-E7(i think of these as one chord-

Any chance you could explain that a bit further?I suppose it is basic theory and if more than the scope of this thread I understand. Thanks
tytlfamily

[GuitaRoland]

I guess the secret is knowledge, not much is difficult when you know how to do it. I don't have the knowledge either, and besides that you also need a Dumble amplifier that most of us don't have.

/R

[thenoviceguitarist]

and besides that you also need a Dumble amplifier that most of us don't have.

/R

LOL here ya go Roland, I found you a Dumble. Just under $100K haha... This was posted in December, but something tells me it's still available!

http://www.maverick-music.com/vintag...w-steve-farris

[wolflen]

over a Dmi7..i would use G7-Bb7-Db7-E7(i think of these as one chord-

Any chance you could explain that a bit further?I suppose it is basic theory and if more than the scope of this thread I understand. Thanks
tytlfamily

these are a minor 3rd from each other..very much like diminished 7 or 7b9 chords ..below i wrote out how they relate(using the 1357 tones) of each chord to the Dm7 chord...using runs, scale frags, arpeggios, and some chromatic glue you can build a nice solo over the Dm7



.........1 b3 5 7

Dmi7 D F A C


G7 11 13 9 3

Bb7 #5 R b3 b5

Db7 b9 3 b5 13

E7 9 #11 13 R

[fep]

They both play around with superimposing other arps over the chord (over Dm, they might use arps like Fmaj7, Am, C maj, Em etc.). Larry talks about it in one of his early videos and Robben writes about it in his chapter in the book titled "Ten".

Larry also has a concept called the "Super Arpeggio". We discussed it here:

Playing Outside over Jazz/Rock style

[Mario Abbagliati]

It's almost irrelevant what they play, with guys like those it's all about how to play, feel, time and touch.

[brwnhornet59]

these are a minor 3rd from each other..very much like diminished 7 or 7b9 chords ..below i wrote out how they relate(using the 1357 tones) of each chord to the Dm7 chord...using runs, scale frags, arpeggios, and some chromatic glue you can build a nice solo over the Dm7



.........1 b3 5 7

Dmi7 D F A C


G7 11 13 9 3

Bb7 #5 R b3 b5

Db7 b9 3 b5 13

E7 9 #11 13 R

Great breakdown. But i think the G7 would be spelled, 11 13 R b3.

Or did i look at this wrong?

[tytlfamily]

Thanks for writing that all out, I appreciate it.
Tytlfamily

[M-ster]

Nice! Ford's sound and feel are very nice on this (the Ford/Carlton YT vid')!

[richb2]

Check out Larry Carlton's 335 Improv DVD (Truefire). In the second lesson Larry talks about playing over Burnable. He talks about using the diminished scale over the raised 9 chord, and then about shifting the diminished. I see Ford using this scale in his soloing on that youtube.

[brwnhornet59]

Hey Tytlfamily, when i click on your youtube link it says the channel is not available. Sadness.

[kimx0355]

Hi again.

Thanks for your quick replys! But I must admit, I´m a bit confused.

Wolf, you say G7, Bb7, Db7 and E7 - play the melodic minor scale a half step higher from each chord; that means Ab-, B-, D-, and F melodic minor.

From where do you get these chords?

The diminished scale (half-whole), is that supposed to be played from the tone d (we talk Dm7)?

The whole tone scale played from d as well?

As you can see, I´m still searching for answers! It´s not that I don´t know anytihing about theory, I just want it to "fitt logical" in my brain!

Regards from Kim

[Tag]

Here's a clip of Carlton/ Ford tearing up a tune employing a "static" single chord vamp for virtually the entire song. Both players hit some colorful extensions. Really cool tune.

Fords just playing over the Db7#9 chord and using his typical diminished licks for the most part. Sounds like the keyboard player just keeps moving the chord up and down in minor 3rds and Carlton follows along. Check out Rodney Jones, B.Lagrene, David stryker, Benson and some jazz guys Like Kenny Garrett J.Redman Lee morgan and guys like that on these types of vamps for some really outside playing. Jackie McClean also KILLS on these kinds of tunes with some wild whole tone and augmented ideas.

[keith]

Hey fep not to derail this thread but you made reference to a book " Ten " but I couldn't find anything about it. Is that the sole title? Who is the primary author? Thanks

[fep]

Hey fep not to derail this thread but you made reference to a book " Ten " but I couldn't find anything about it. Is that the sole title? Who is the primary author? Thanks

It was done by GIT and Howard Roberts in the 80s I believe. It's out of print and I lucked out and found a copy on Ebay. There isn't a primary author, rather there are 10 authors (actually 11 when you include Howard Roberts chapter).

Robben Ford did a chapter on superimposing triads
Ron Eschuet on target tones (I think)
Howard Roberts on memory and optimal learning
Eddie Van Halen on his techniques

My memory is failing me and I'm not at home in front of the book. I'm thinking Don Mock also had a chapter as did Joe Diorio, maybe Larry Carlton. Can't remember the rest.

[richb2]

Take a look at that DVD that I quoted. It is EXACTLY what you are asking for. He talks about how to solo over the song you posted and Ford is obviously following Carlton's instructs. With #9 you can sub a #9 chord up a minor third. So in this case Db#9 is the same as E#9 or G#9 or etc. Larry goes on to say that you can do the same thing with the dim scale so Dbdim or Edim or Gdim or etc. That is what they are doing. Larry says that you can also use the Db blues scale. See if that covers everything they are both doing. Or go with the other more "general"comments from some of the other posters. Your choice.

Kim I hope you can see this video:

http://truefire.com/tftv/index.html?.../335improv24_w

[kimx0355]

Hi Rich and you other helpful guys out there.
Yeah, I know a lot of jazz-concepts for major dominant chords; triads, arps, bebop-scales, diminished scale, target tones and so on, BUT what can I do when it´s minor? That´s my main question.

[Tag]

Hi Rich and you other helpful guys out there.
Yeah, I know a lot of jazz-concepts for major dominant chords; triads, arps, bebop-scales, diminished scale, target tones and so on, BUT what can I do when it´s minor? That´s my main question.

If you know all of those things, just use the relative dom 7 chord for the minor chord at hand. Chord function tells you that the II-IV-V and VII are all related. Most minor vamps are dorian based, so think Dorian for starters. If its a D-7 vamp, then G7 is the relative Dom 7 chord, and vice versa. That means all of your G7 licks and lines will work over the D-7 chord. That means Ab melodic minor, D melodic minor, G augmented and wholetone scales, G diminshed (1/2-whole) Bb7, Db7, E7 and all of their relative chords for starters. Then you can play off the V7 (as someone said earlier) and apply all of the same concepts to THAT group of chords! The difference is off the A7 group, you will be playing back into the D minor chord, (jazzers seem to use this more, as it creates more movement) while with the first set, you are playing on top of the Dmin7. (Guys like carlton and Ford and many fusion players seem to do more of that IMO.) WHEW! Thats a LOT of stuff you can play, and just the tip of the iceberg!

[kimx0355]

Now we are talking! You bring "water to my mill" as we say in Denmark(vand til min mølle). If Dm7 in "Help the poor" is dorian, it´s a lot easier for me to understand; all the altered G7-stuff works! Great!

I know now that G7, Bb7, Db7 and E7 come from the "diminished concept". Play the triads of these chords, and then you are into triad improvising!

There is a lot here to practice, but the melodic minor scale in all 12 keys must be the right place to start - it´s a damn good sounding scale, and it works both for static chords and 2-5-1 progressions.

If a song/vamp is D-aeolian, is it then ok to play altered C7-stuff (if it fits the song)?

[Tag]

If a song/vamp is D-aeolian, is it then ok to play altered C7-stuff (if it fits the song)?

Thats a little trickier at first, but yes. Think function again. The I-III and VI chords are related, and F is the relative Major of D minor 7, so playing the C7 into Fmaj7 is a great way to spin some altered lines. Many times I hear the flatted 6th in aeolian as the flat 9 of the V Chord. (In this case A7) so I will play A7b9 back into the D minor, or like you said, the C7 into Fmajor7, or even E7 into A minor. (The III chord.)