Playing outside

**mr. beaumont** · 05-06-2011, 12:20 PM

I dunno, I got a giggle out of it.

And knowing JakeAcci from another forum, I also know he knows his stuff and is a good player and teacher, so he can have a little fun now and then.

Funny, it seems the joke didn't derail the thread as much as arguing about it. The easiest way to not let an off topic post "derail" a thread would be to ignore it. Jake's apologized (for something I don't think he needs to apologize for) and we move on.

As for pros, well, I don't know if I should be in that company. I think of myself as an avid amateur who refuses to play for free. And yes, I get there's an oxymoron in there.

As for pros as part of this community, well, I think we have a good mix of seasoned vets willing to share info and beginners willing to learn, and then all points in between. Anybody scared off by the occasional joke probably needs to lighten up a bit anyway. Who knows who lurks and hasn't seen an outlet for posting yet? So just keep the discussion varied and maybe we will see some big names on our quiet streets...and if we don't, well, there's still a ton of folks to learn from 'round here.

So back to topic:

The vids above are excellent--anyone with questions on playing out should definitely watch them.

Really, playing out is all about how you get back in--you can play almost anything over say, an altered dominant, if you do it with conviction and resolve cleanly. So my advice to those wanting to play out is--become as confident an inside player as you can first--it'll save your ass everytime you paint yourself into a corner! (which is not a bad thing--painting oneself into a musical corner is the mother of invention, or something like that)

**cosmic gumbo** · 05-06-2011, 12:31 PM

George Duke was a Mother of Invention...

Stringbean · 05-06-2011, 12:44 PM

**merseybeat** · 05-07-2011, 02:37 AM

From Guy Pratts website!

'Bass players are ten a penny but a good wit is hard to find, so we hired him' -David Gilmour

Same for Jazz guitarists too!

Great lessons though Jack, thanks for sharing! Im looking at your site now mate! Brilliant!

Eddie

**aquinas** · 05-07-2011, 04:17 AM

Great lesson, and very appreciative....but not a fan of elitism aforementioned. Playing jazz is an awesome undertaking, but no need to take oneself so seriously.

**czardas** · 05-07-2011, 04:42 AM

Originally Posted by jeffstritt

As a teacher, I see time and time again, students that don't care to learn or have anything to do with jazz because some eliteist made them think that weren't smart enough or good enough to do it. Generations of players get turned off to the entire genre because of this pompus attitude that so many jazz players have.

Well I personally have met and had lessons from some of the best musicians in the world. To me jazz is just another style of music, no better nor worse. I certainly would not consider it any more complicated than other styles of music. Most jazz rhythm is nothing like as complicated as for example say Indian music. It is said to take three generations to produce a tabla player. Any kind of pompous jazz attitude is really unwarrented, altough it saddens me that it does exist. Any musician worth his or her salt will not be taken in by it.

**Reg** · 05-07-2011, 11:00 AM

Outside to some is very straight to someone else. I know that's pretty stupid... but most of what gets talked about as being outside is pretty straight to me personally... it's just a different path or shape for developing, in this case a solo. If one has the skill or knowledge of a method of controlling use of how one hears pitch collections... how outside is it really.
A small point I would add to the jazz elitist subject, is that to really be a jazz player, as opposed to a musician who can play Jazz tunes. It is extremely difficult, and takes a major commitment of ones life. We all can talk about playing jazz... that doesn't take much ... but ... to play jazz well... does. I don't mean learning tunes and then playing them... jazz players don't have to know a tune to be able to perform or play it well. Anyway the point I'm trying to make is most people don't have the time, motivation...even if they have the talent.
It can be very difficult being an ambassador of jazz, listening to people tell how things are when they don't have a clue what their talking about, let alone have the ears to actually hear. I for one would put up with a little BS to learn from players who can actually play jazz, as opposed to those who can talk about playing jazz...
Disclaimer... I apologize if I offended anyone... I'm talking in general terms... as opposed to any actual situation.
Jack's a great player and appears to have a ton of material to learn from... He puts his shit out there... take advantage of his generosity, bitch about him in private... I don't miss guys like kevin, I would miss Jack. Reg

**czardas** · 05-07-2011, 11:17 AM

I would certainly have to agree with Reg regarding Jack's playing.

I can't agree about Jazz being more difficult though. To me flamenco would be the most challenging guitar style due to the demands required in accompaniment (though my opinion would undoubtedly be biased). It's an area of playing that is almost impossible to define. It's only possible to learn through years of experience (it's a bit quicker than learning tabla). There is however one rule. Don't assume anything.

No disrespect intended here either. I simply would not have the time available to pursue flamenco and also be a proficient jazz guitarist. For that you would need at least two lifetimes. Not that I don't like jazz music nor that I don't appreciate the effort that goes into it. Any contributions from me will always from an outside perspective. Flamenco is nearly always played outside.

**wizard3739** · 05-07-2011, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by Reg

Outside to some is very straight to someone else. I know that's pretty stupid... but most of what gets talked about as being outside is pretty straight to me personally... it's just a different path or shape for developing, in this case a solo. If one has the skill or knowledge of a method of controlling use of how one hears pitch collections... how outside is it really.
A small point I would add to the jazz elitist subject, is that to really be a jazz player, as opposed to a musician who can play Jazz tunes. It is extremely difficult, and takes a major commitment of ones life. We all can talk about playing jazz... that doesn't take much ... but ... to play jazz well... does. I don't mean learning tunes and then playing them... jazz players don't have to know a tune to be able to perform or play it well. Anyway the point I'm trying to make is most people don't have the time, motivation...even if they have the talent.
It can be very difficult being an ambassador of jazz, listening to people tell how things are when they don't have a clue what their talking about, let alone have the ears to actually hear. I for one would put up with a little BS to learn from players who can actually play jazz, as opposed to those who can talk about playing jazz...
Disclaimer... I apologize if I offended anyone... I'm talking in general terms... as opposed to any actual situation.
Jack's a great player and appears to have a ton of material to learn from... He puts his shit out there... take advantage of his generosity, bitch about him in private... I don't miss guys like kevin, I would miss Jack. Reg

+1
Wiz

**kris** · 05-07-2011, 12:53 PM

music and emotions...may be this is a key...:-)

**Reg** · 05-07-2011, 01:02 PM

hey czardas...If I implied jazz was more difficult than anything else... that was not my intent, sorry. I was only implying that to become a jazz player is extremely difficult... very few actually actually get there... as with most musical styles... hell as with most things in life. I believe this thread is about playing outside in a jazz context. I think were making reference to outside as playing pitch collections or sources of pitch collections that are not implied by the harmonic implications of a set of changes, or jazz tune. My point is we should listen to those players that can actually play and explain how those systems or methods work, and cut them some slack. There seem to be lots of players who have opinions about playing outside, very few who can play as well as explain what there doing.
hey czardas... I would dig hearing your explanation or examples of playing outside in a jazz context... Please don't take this as anything negative... I don't know your playing skills level etc... am just interested... I'll post a simple video of a few methods I use, similar to Jacks, but try and show different approaches. Best Reg

**czardas** · 05-07-2011, 01:31 PM

Okay Reg, I misunderstood you. Jazz has it's own unique brand of difficulties. I'm learning new stuff here. I get the concept of playing outside, but the discussion seems odd to me because I thought that was something fundamental in Jazz. It's certainly interesting and gives rise to intriguing new ideas.

I've heard some pretty off the wall improvisations in flamenco performances too. Sometimes it seems that the number of notes takes more precedent than any harmonic considerations, and it sounds completely untamed, without any fences.

I hope to set up some video stuff in the near future, although I intend to record set pieces that I have written for students. Pieces geared towards teaching the structure of compas in various forms of flamenco. I'm still writing the material inbetween other commitments. Back to the topic.

Edit And just to give you a laugh, when I saw the title of this topic, I thought it was about playing outdoors, which is something I have a lot of experience in.

@ Me

**Jazzpunk** · 05-07-2011, 03:17 PM

'Lightening up' is good advice but it needs to be a two way street. People shouldn't get so offended when somebody has a more serious approach to learning and interacting with others.

I know Jack outside of this forum and can tell you that the allegations of elitism are ridiculous and uncalled for. If you have a sincere interest in learning jazz guitar, Jack is extremely generous with his time and knowledge. That is pretty rare imo.

If we can allow for strong opinions from folks who admittedly have no interest in pursuing jazz, I hope we can also allow for strong opinions from the accomplished players on this forum who are willing to share their knowledge.

Can't we all just get along?

**Jazzpunk** · 05-07-2011, 03:22 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Really, playing out is all about how you get back in--you can play almost anything over say, an altered dominant, if you do it with conviction and resolve cleanly. So my advice to those wanting to play out is--become as confident an inside player as you can first--it'll save your ass everytime you paint yourself into a corner! (which is not a bad thing--painting oneself into a musical corner is the mother of invention, or something like that)

From my own experiences so far, I think this is great advice. I think a lot of us newbies try to run before we can walk and we just end up falling flat on our faces!

**czardas** · 05-07-2011, 05:55 PM

Originally Posted by Jazzpunk

If we can allow for strong opinions from folks who admittedly have no interest in pursuing jazz, I hope we can also allow for strong opinions from the accomplished players on this forum who are willing to share their knowledge.

Can't we all just get along?

Well my opinions are personal opinions, I suppose I could keep them to myself, but I'm unsure in what capacity jazz has to be pursued to express an opinion about something. Knowing full well the hard work involved in pursuing music performance generally, I can't see there being any problem with outside perspectives. If someone wishes to draw inspiration from other musicians, is it essential they follow the same path?

My main interest in jazz leans more towards composition rather than performance, but that's just me. I personally choose to draw influences from different music genres. I try to contribute some of what I know in return. If it is of value to you personally, then that's a good thing, otherwise do things the way you understand. My earlier comments were a response to another poster's comments.

**Carltone** · 05-07-2011, 06:47 PM

As my former teacher's wife used to say...musicians are just a weird lot!

JZ has changed the lives of alot of players with his Sheets of Sound.

I for one am more than willing to put with his *web forum persona*...for all the good that he brings to the table.

I really respect all the hard work he puts into what he does...and you only need small doses of it to make quantum leaps forward.

His intensity...is often channelled toward the benefit of others...rare these days. (And the guy is non-stop, tireless)

Really glad my first post here could be a little thumbs up for Jack.

**Jazzpunk** · 05-07-2011, 07:01 PM

Originally Posted by czardas

Well my opinions are personal opinions, I suppose I could keep them to myself, but I'm unsure in what capacity jazz has to be pursued to express an opinion about something. Knowing full well the hard work involved in pursuing music performance generally, I can't see there being any problem with outside perspectives. If someone wishes to draw inspiration from other musicians, is it essential they follow the same path?

How much experience does one need in studying Flamenco music in order to express an informed opinion?

There's nothing wrong with having a casual interest in jazz nor expressing outside perspectives and opinions based on limited experience as long as it's kept in the proper perspective. Will these opinions carry the same weight as informed opinions from accomplished players with years of experience? I don't think so.

I'm at a beginner/intermediate level with jazz so I try to approach accomplished players from a place of respect. I imagine you would advise students of Flamenco guitar to do the same!

I came across these words of wisdom today:

“Don’t let what you think you know, get in the way of learning things you don’t.”

Words to live by.

**Jazzpunk** · 05-07-2011, 07:17 PM

Originally Posted by Carltone

As my former teacher's wife used to say...musicians are just a weird lot!

Ha! Guilty as charged.

**czardas** · 05-07-2011, 07:38 PM

Originally Posted by Jazzpunk

How much experience does one need in studying Flamenco music in order to express an informed opinion?

There's no problem with having a casual interest in jazz nor expressing outside perspectives and opinions based on limited experience. Will these opinions carry anywhere near the same weight as informed opinions from accomplished players with years of experience? I don't think so but that's just my opinion.

I'm very aware of my level of experience and limited grasp on Jazz improv and choose to approach accomplished players from a place of respect. I imagine you would advise students of Flamenco guitar to do the same!

I came across these words of wisdom today:

“Don’t let what you think you know, get in the way of learning things you don’t.”

Words to live by imo!

Most of my posts on this forum are either asking opinions about theory or giving advice about basic guitar techniques. How to study and develop playing skills which are universal. It is sometimes interesting to hear other people's approaches, but I don't ram my methods down anyone's throat. I am just as qualified to judge a beginner's problem in technique and offer advice as most any other member on the forum.

The highest level of teaching I have done is to guitar students who came to me from a UK Royal College of Music. I have 20 years of guitar teaching experience. I also find myself defending myself a little bit too much around here. It's as if everything I say seems to offend someone. But putting things into perspective - one of the first reactions I got when I came to this forum was the following:

A flamenco guitarist is guilty until proven innocent around here!

This is a waste of time.

**Jazzpunk** · 05-07-2011, 08:05 PM

Originally Posted by czardas

This is a waste of time.

Agreed.

Did you have some jazz related insights to offer? What techniques are you currently applying to your 'outside' playing? Which jazz tunes are you currently applying them to?

**czardas** · 05-08-2011, 03:47 AM

Originally Posted by Jazzpunk

Agreed.

Did you have some jazz related insights to offer? What techniques are you currently applying to your 'outside' playing? Which jazz tunes are you currently applying them to?

Where did I say that?

Here is one insight for you. There is no such thing as playing outside! It's just a stupid way of saying free improvisation. Playing outside what? Nearly every note you can possibly play can be given some kind of theoretical interpretation.

There are one or two advanced players around here, and that's about it. Jazzpunk you ask "why can't we get along?", and then you accusingly point a finger at me. It's not very easy to get along with idiots. But like ksjazzguitar said, I'm stupid and I don't know anything. Like Jack said, I have no idea what I'm talking about. Nonesense!

I have had run ins with one or two people that hold respect around here. I have apologized and tried to engage them, but been ignored. While I don't see why I should have been apologizing in the first place. I have tried to engage you too Jazzpunk, but you side step what I have to say.

Originally Posted by czardas

Knowing full well the hard work involved in pursuing music performance generally, I can't see there being any problem with outside perspectives. If someone wishes to draw inspiration from other musicians, is it essential they follow the same path?

To which you responded:

Originally Posted by Jazzpunk

“Don’t let what you think you know, get in the way of learning things you don’t.”

I've had three months of amateur musicians making wise cracks and throwing punches. Well it's your loss, not mine.

Originally Posted by jeffstritt

Generations of players get turned off to the entire genre because of this pompus attitude that so many jazz players have.

jeffstritt Thank you for opening my eyes, and thank you to the few forum members who have engaged me in productive discussion along the way. Sorry it has to be like this, but this forum is impenetrable to outsiders.

**Jazzpunk** · 05-08-2011, 05:45 AM

Originally Posted by czardas

Here is one insight for you. There is no such thing as playing outside! It's just a stupid way of saying free improvisation. Playing outside what? Nearly every note you can possibly play can be given some kind of theoretical interpretation.

"Free improvisation or free music is improvised music without any rules beyond the taste or inclination of the musician(s) involved; in many cases the musicians make an active effort to avoid overt references to recognizable musical genres. "

What do you mean by free improvisation? Are you talking about improvising with complete abandon in a manner that disregards the harmonic structure of the song?

When I think of playing 'outside' in a jazz context, I think of choosing specific scales/chord tones/sequences etc. to achieve the vibe I want in direct relation to the harmonic structure of the music (I'm sure more advanced players have a broader view on the subject but that's where I'm at).

'Free improvisation' and playing 'outside' seem like different approaches in my mind though I guess they can overlap depending on your point of view.

(BTW, I'm going to do you a favor and ignore the personal attacks and vitriol expressed in the rest of your post. However, in the future I would appreciate if you did not selectively edit our dialogue to twist our exchange into something it was not. Thanks.)

**merseybeat** · 05-08-2011, 07:24 AM

And all this started with a little rain

Ed

**jzucker** · 05-08-2011, 08:58 AM

sheesh, ditch the arguments. If you don't agree with the concept of "outside" playing, please move on.

**jzucker** · 05-08-2011, 09:43 AM

Originally Posted by czardas

Where did I say that?

Here is one insight for you. There is no such thing as playing outside! It's just a stupid way of saying free improvisation.

NOOOOOOOOOOOO

That is totally wrong. Playing outside and playing free are totally different concepts.

Playing outside implies playing outside the harmonic structure of a specific set of changes that the rhythm section is playing. Playing free is the entire group improvising chord changes and melodies simultaneously. Ironically, playing free is usually more "inside" than playing "out".

By the way, playing "outside" was taught in classes 30 years ago at the university of miami in their jazz program...