-
Can anyone help? I don't know where to start on approaching tasteful jazz blues improvisation.
I never really learned the blues, but I've been playing jazz for a few years. I don't know how I passed it up, and I'm always kind of embarrassed to asks my teacher I've been with.
-
03-21-2011 02:03 PM
-
We talking a jazz blues or a three chord blues?
-
No need to feel embarrassed, we've all got plenty to learn
I'd suggest first listening to blues and jazz/blues players you like, and trying to cop what you can from their playing. Kenny Burrell, Wes Montgomery, and Joe Pass, to name just a few, all have some great examples of jazz/blues (and each one approaches it somewhat differently).
If you play jazz, you probably already know the common chords for blues progressions: I7 IV7 & V7 (in minor i7 iv7 & V7). Besides major and minor, the most common scales are Mixolydian (the V7 scale), the pentatonic scale and the blues scale (with b5). You could start by making yourself thoroughly familiar with 12-bar blues progressions, and try soloing over them with a mix of these scales.
Typical blues guitar relies a bit more on "position" playing than jazz playing, and relies more on melodic patterns (aka "licks") - jazz/blues doesn't stick to these, but makes use of them to keep a bluesy sound and character.
I'm sure others will add much more to this bare-bones reply...
-
Thanks for the posts thus far everyone!
I am talking about jazz blues, but I suppose blues as a whole is just as appropriate. In my playing when improvising over 7th chords, I play basic mixolydian, though my ideas do not sound like the blues...
-
I do approach a jazz blues and a three chord blues differently, but the overall idea is the same--KISS principle (Keep it SOULFUL, Stupid)
When I play three chord blues, I definitely try to imagine my lines being "vocal," and I try to adhere to the idea of "if you can't sing it, reconsider playing it." There's moments when you need a little flash, but for the most part, that's the first key to sounding not so bluesy and getting into that "blooze" sound...you know, "blues hammer."
On a jazz blues, I'm going to address the changes a little more--but I still might use minor pentatonic lines on the IV, for example...just rocking mixolydian over everything doesn't work, because there's nothing too bluesy about the mixolydian, really...to me, blues is all about the m3/M3 "rub." I love to take the minor third and bend it just a little, to the "just intonated" third (shy of the M3)--to me, that move is the blues, right there. Sometimes, I'll hammer on from the m3 to the M3, like a piano player would do--almost the same effect--the ear hears both.
I try to build my solos on a jazz blues gradually...I start with shorter, more vocal phrases, and try to add on and make my lines longer as the solo goes on...Obviously, this doesn't work as well if you only get one chorus, but you can still build up as you go...
-
A tool you'll need is to be able to play ii V lines that resolve to a dominant chord instead of a maj7 or mi tonality.
We never really do much of this when we play standards because everything resolves to traditional (ma, mi) tonics, and playing the M7 when you get to I sounds fine, but when you're playing a blues and you play ii V I or superimpose a ii V in front of the IV chord, if you even think about the M7 (other than as a passing note) when you hit either of those chords, it'll sound like, well, not blues. Then try to get used to using the b7 on the I the way you may be used to using the M7 now.
Also listen to lots of Wes--Unit 7, Wes Coast Blues, etc
And old GB--Cookbook era. Almost everything Benson played back then was some kind of blues.
Hope that helps!
-
One resource that I picked up a couple of months ago that's really, really informative is Mel Bay's "Payin' Your Dues With The Blues".
It starts from the beginning and is very informative. It is geared more towards the Jazz Blues if that's what you're looking to get into.
There are a ton of free resources on the web, but as a reference book that is specific to your needs, I would check this one out.
-
That leaves you two choices: 1) it's you, or 2) it's the pitch collection. I say it's the pitch collection. If you stay inside the bounds of the Mixo, you probaby can't get much bluer than the Beatle riff on "Birthday."
Originally Posted by cap rad
Try using a real blue scale. You need b3's and b5's. Do think Ella or Billie Holliday use the Mixo scale as such on Stormy Weather?
I would suggest the same advice I gave in the thread I linked to. Start with playing bluesy licks unaccompanied, then you work your way up through progressions.
-
Originally Posted by Aristotle
This is really good advice......
I'll usually transcribe one chorus and play it to death in every way possible, then move on to the next chorus, rinse and repeat. One other thing to try is to mimic a vocal line of any blues. This really forces the call and response nature of the blues.
-
Cap:
While you would think that jazz blues would use a dom scale due to the 7th chords, it wont really sound bluesy...adding a b3 to the scale as well as focusing on the 6th and 9th vs the b7 may help...major/minor pentationics, blues scales, diminished, ii-V's, dom bebop are some of the scales that I use depending on what measure I am on to lead to the next chord...and dont forget that a lot of tunes are based on a minor blues progression, not a Dom based blues (I dont know if that is what the technical name for what you would call a standard jazz blues progression, that is just how I think of it..)
You may want to check out the Frank Vignola series on blues..three books which have 30 blues solos written out..I learned all of them to start learning the language...definitely more Herb Ellis than Wes, who used a lot of cool substitutions in his blues, but may be a good place to start...
Have fun...
-
As Mr Beaumont said "m3->M3".
Arpeggios on the shapes of the chord.
Chromatism connexion to the next note of the next chord.
Use the phrasing "call/response".
-
correct me if im wrong but doesnt robben ford use the mixolydian scales alot, and he sounds very bluesy.
-
Not to mention T-Bone Walker
-
Hallelujah! someone brought up Robben Ford. I was gonna recommend listening to and transcribing him. Originally Posted by gingerjazz
Been trying to plays blues for years, reading all the guitar mag articles, and trying to figure out what scale(s) were appropriate. I eventually came up with this:
Mixolydian, with the b3rd and b5th thrown in as needed/desired (especially over the IV chord), as well as the occasional chromatic note. There is some real blues to be found in that magic spot between the b3rd and major 3rd, and in worrying that b5 (considered the "blue" note).
I've spent some time trying to transcribe and analyze some of Robben's notes/scales in his solos, and some of it still doesn't make sense to me, but there is so much value in the attempt. And I came away with some cool licks, some that forced me out of my usual "blues box".
Btw, saw him live in Aug, and he's got what I want (not talking about a Telecaster either). So tasteful and creative.
-
03-26-2011, 04:09 PM #15Baltar Hornbeek Guest
Sussing out the so called blue notes can be tough. For me it helps to listen for them in the recordings of great singers. Associating the emotional context with harmonic context will bring you a long way towards understanding.
Listen, for example, to BB King sing The Thrill Is Gone. Can you hear him work that pain, remorse, sorrow into a note somewhere between a 4th and 5th? It's all there, not complicated not simple....but soulful
-
Kingbscuit try playing mixolydian over the one chord then minor pentatonic over the four chord.This should get you in the ball park.
-
If you think about it playing say A penatatonic minor over the D7 four chord you are playing a lot of the tones from D mixolydian.
-
Sorry about the posts one after another but i just remembered something.I once watched a tutor dvd of robbens style,in his he described a scale he uses a lot,to my mind it seemed to be a mix of the minor pentatonic,major pentatonic and mixolydian scale all added together,then he seems to just hit the notes that fit the chord of the moment.Im sure his playing is more intuitive than this but it gives you some idea of what hes thinking.In fact thinking about it its more a case of which notes he doesnt play.I guess thats the sign of atrue master blues man ,he can play any note and make it work.Sorry if that sounds like a cop out.
-
That would be the same pitch collection as Originally Posted by kingbiscuit
-Dorian with the #3 and b5 thrown in as needed
-Lydian-Dominant with the b3 and 4 thrown in as needed
Some might say if you have to add to notes to a mode to get your pitch collection, then the pitch collection is not that mode. Of course, there's the...
Mixolydian built on the b7th of the key with a b3 and a b5 thrown in, which gets you the same pitch collection.
Maybe the easiest way is to say major and minor blues scales. That would get you all the same notes, and have the advantage of avoiding chord-scale pretzel logic.Last edited by Aristotle; 03-27-2011 at 08:11 AM.
-
Well, I started to try to describe it like this also but edited it out because my response was losing focus. Originally Posted by gingerjazz
I agree: major and minor pentatone, plus the b5, the mixolydian, add in some chromatic notes. I should say I'm talking about over dom7th chords, not a minor blues. And yes, the minor pentatonic (or minor blues preferably) works very well over the IV chord. I had an epiphany one day about this combined scale. It's close to all the notes in an octave (I think Robben eventually hits them all). And as B.B. once said, you just have to find the ones that sound good.
Btw, I've studied his "Thrill Is Gone". Man, this is the essence of the blues, imo. Mainly the minor blues scale, but at times it really is hard to pin down what note he's playing. He's between notes - just pure feel on his part. And "Live at Cook County" has a smokin' version of that song.
-
Hey everyone,
A couple of weeks ago I joined a jazz band at the conservatorium. It's fairly simple tunes that we're playing, because I only got into jazz playing about a year ago.
Anyway, we've mainly been playing blues tunes and the book that we've been playing out of suggests the scale to use over each song and it outlines the simple chord progression.
So I was just looking for some ideas to spice it up a little and keep it more interesting.
One of the progressions is just a basic 12 bar blues :
F7 Bb7 F7 F7
Bb7 Bb7 F7 F7
C7 Bb7 F7 F7
So using this as the basis for answers, what different scales, arpeggios, etc. could I play for the improv. And what kind of chord substitutions and extensions could I Play to make the rhythm parts more interesting.
Thanks in advance for the replies,
And please don't make anything too complicated
-
Well, the classic answer is to use Mixolydian over dominant 7ths. So for this, you would just play notes from the F mix, Bb mix, and C mix scales wherever those chords appear.
However, that will more than likely end up sounding contrived. Especially in the blues, you will need to incorporate "blue" notes (e.g. b3 and b5) - much experimentation is required to discover what sounds good and what doesn't. My blues improv has gotten to the point where it actually sounds pretty good now, but it's taken me a couple of years and a buttload of study. I'm just now starting to incorporate the dominant-diminished scale into my blues and it is really making a difference in the "hipness factor" of my playing.
Don Mock has a good DVD called something like "The blues from rock to jazz" that's got a lot of valuable information in it. The Fareed Haque course on comping at TrueFire also has some great voicings to comp the blues with.
The classic way of learning, of course, is to listen to alot of blues by jazz players & transcribe them. Good places to start are Lester Young "Back To The Land," Clifford Brown "Sandu," and pretty much any Miles Davis blues cover (e.g. "Trane's Blues"). And of course, Wes Montgomery playing "No Blues" at the Half Note, if you can handle it! :-)
-
There are a lot of ways you can add to this. Since everything is Dom, there are tons of tensions going on.
3-9 arps would be quite useful in giving you the Dom 9 sound. Play A-7b5 against the F7,
D-7b5 against the Bb7 and E-7b5 against the C7. The become rootless Dom 9 arps.
You could also play EbM7#11 against the F7, AbM7#11 against the Bb7 and BbM7#11 against the C7. This will give you the 9/13 sound.
The chords work the same way the arps do.
on measure 6 you could make the Bb7 into Bb7b9. I like putting the b9 in the bass making it a rootless Bb7b9, (B Dim).
You can also imply the jazz blues turnarounds if you can get the Bass player on board. Same if there is a Keyboard player.
For scales try Lydian Dom or the Dom Bebop scale. There are lots of other scales that would fit. How far out do you want to go?
-
Thanks for the reply fatjeff, I'll definitely give that a go. It doesn't sound too difficult. I'll see if I can check out the books and DVDs as well.
Brwnhornet59, thanks for the stuff to work on. I've just got a few questions.
What are 3-9 arps?
With the Lydian Dom and Dom bebop scales, would I change scale for each chord, or the same scale over entire piece?
Also I wouldn't want to start bossing the piano and bass players around, not yet anyway
And I don't mind going out a bit, I really like dissonance in songs. But just nothing over the top that sounds completely wrong.
My teacher also told me that you can sidestep up or down a fret on the 4th bar and return to the root on the 5th, is that a good thing to do? And If so, are there any other examples of when I can do this or something similar?
Also, keep the chord ideas coming as well. They're really good.
Cheers
-
You will not have to boss them around, just clue them in on what you would like to do with your solo.
As for 3-9 arps, in this instance you are using the 3,5,b7,9 of each chord. By playing the -7b5 arps over the Dom chords you are doing just that. The -7b5 arps start on the 3rd of each Dom. See it?
As for Lydian dom, yes play each scale over each chord. Like Jeff said, you will need to experiment to find what sounds good. Look at the #4 as being a blue note. You can experiment with the Dom scale and add a natural 7 as a blue note. Or a b3 or a b6 etc....
Side stepping is fine. You can do it in other places as well. I think that you have enough to work on for now. As you get these ideas in your head and under your fingers, we can move onto some other cool ideas if you like.Last edited by brwnhornet59; 11-12-2011 at 11:49 PM.
Reply With Quote
Melody between melody
Today, 03:25 AM in Chord-Melody