Improvising over a Jazz Blues

[JonR]

The common thing to do with the chords in blues is tritone subs. IOW, as F7 is going to Bb7, stick in a B7 or B9 on the last beat.
IOW, precede any chord you like with a dom7 a half-step above.
As a bII (substituting for a V) the scale would be lydian dominant, but you're not likely to have the time to explore it (on 1 beat?). An arpeggio is all you need, but that could include a 9, #11 and/or 13, as long as they resolve neatly on to chord tones on the next chord.

Dim7 arps from the 3rd of the chord are good too (again, for a V chord as it moves to I - which applies to F7>Bb7 as well as to C7>F7).

One thing to realise about blues is the dom7 chords have a dual function. From one perspective, they have no dominant function at all. Eg the IV7 chord is not dominant in any functional way. Neither is the I7: except as it moves to IV.
The main reason b7s are added to I and IV chords in blues is to reflect the blues scale. (The b7 on the IV is actually the b3 of the key.)

The most extreme example of chord subs in a blues * is probably Charlie Parker's "Blues For Alice" (and I think he used the same changes in one or two others):

|Fmaj7 - - - |Em7b5 - A7 - |Dm7 - G7 - |Cm7 - F7 - |
|Bb7 - - - |Bbm7 - Eb7 - |Am7 - D7 - |Abm7 - Db7 - |
|Gm7 - - - |C7 - - - |Am7 - D7 - |Gm7 - C7 - |

That's key of F, but F only occurs once! (except for end of bar 4) All that remains of the blues format is the IV chord in bar 5, and the ii-V in bars 9-10. And of course the 12-bar format. These are enough to make it recognisable as a blues, although - IMO - it doesn't actually sound "bluesy" any more. You'd have trouble using blues scale over much of that!
Mostly it's circle progressions (backcycled dominants, secondary dominants with their ii chords added in), or tritone subs.

A simpler "jazz blues" sequence would be:
|F7 - - -|Bb7 - - - |F7 - - - |Cm7 - F7 B9 |
|Bb9 - - - |Bdim7 - - - | F7 - - - |D7 - - - |
|Gm7 - - - |C7 - - - |F - Dm7 - |Gm7 - C7 - |


* Actually, even more impenetrable theoretically are the chords to Charles Mingus's Goodbye Pork Pie Hat, which is definitely a slow blues in mood and format (and melody), but some very strange chords.

[Helgo]

Hi *doctor.

I want to suggest that you simply record yourself playing two or three (or, of course, more) solo chorusses over that blues progression on a daily basis.

Playing and listening back to it will make you realize what works for you and what doesn´t. And I bet it will show you good and bad things about your playing that you don´t know about at the moment.

To me, that is really essential. Record yourself and listen to it.



Knowing about theoretic possibilities is really nice and helpful, imho even necessary up to a certain point. But thinking about playing the blues will not make you a better blues player. Same goes for jazz standards and really anything. It took me about 10 years to finally figure that out
(YMMV, of course)

Cheers,
H.


ps: If you don´t have any recording equipment I think you should invest in some. Decent equipment comes at very low prices nowadays.
As for backing tracks the internet has a lot and you can email me, I will be glad to share some backingtracks with you.

[JonR]

Hi *doctor.

I want to suggest that you simply record yourself playing two or three (or, of course, more) solo chorusses over that blues progression on a daily basis.

Playing and listening back to it will make you realize what works for you and what doesn´t. And I bet it will show you good and bad things about your playing that you don´t know about at the moment.

To me, that is really essential. Record yourself and listen to it.

Great advice.

In a sense there are TWO essential processes:

1. Listen to the kind of music you want to play. Long and hard. Absorb the vibe, play along, copy what you can.

2. Listen to yourself trying to play like that. Make any corrections necessary.

"Theory" is what comes in between, and may (or may not!) help you on your way. (It should help, of course, but can sometimes take you down irrelevant sidetracks...) But the proof is always in the listening, judging by ear.

[Reg]

here's a old video I made for Sailor of a blues he posted in F, with a few examples of comping. The first one I believe was a blues with implied V chord... never actually play a V chord. The end is more standard Blues...Reg

[Little Jay]

Try also this on the simple 3-chord blues-progression:
C minor pentatonic over the F7 chord
F minor pentatonic over the Bb7 chord
G minor pentatonic over the C7 chord

Instant Wes-blues flavour!
(You can also extend the minor pentatonic scales to the 8-note minor scale, but minor pentatonic has a nice flavour I think)

[Kman]

If your new to the blues try using the major blues scale for most of it, but switch to the minor pentatonic scale on the IV chord and the turnaround. That should get you going.

[the*doctor]

cool, thanks for the replies.
INFORMATION OVERLOAD!

JonR: Interesting ideas and good examples thanks. Also I have this slow downer app on my ipod that I use sometimes if I'm trying to transcribe something.

Helgo: I'll definitely have to start recording myself more. I have an
old emac with audacity on it and there's a line out on my amp.

Reg: There were good ideas in the vid, Cheers.

Kman: That's a nice and easy one to try, it'll be good.

Also thanks little jay & jmstritt for the suggestions. I listen to jazz & blues all the time, so there's no worries about not listening enough. I've only had my ipod for 2 and a half months and have clocked up 25 days, 6 hours, 55 minutes and 3 seconds of listening time!

I'll print this thread off so that I can refer to it when practicing.

Cheers

[jckoto3]

I have a great deal of trouble while trying to play over any type of jazz-blues changes. To put is simply, I tend to throw in everything I know within the first few measures of the improv and I'm left with nothing but rambling nonsense for the remainder of the next few choruses.

If given a half-hour or so, I can come up with some unique melodies that fit the particular jazz-blues changes, but I just don't know how to go on from there. I don't have a great deal of trouble thinking of a "new" jazz-blues head, but I have trouble improvising on subsequent choruses.

I've tried "playing the changes", and while whatever I come up with sounds ok on its own harmonically, the feeling and articulation is way off. I've tried using an ostinato motif, which works to a point, but that kind of device is better left to players who know how to get OUT of the ostinato pattern. I've tried using general diatonic patterns that are easy to modulate to the next chord, but I still have the same problem of going nowhere...

I now have some kind of mental block about playing blues forms, and I need to get over this. Any help on how to approach jazz blues? I know that I am either [or both] under-thinking this, or over-thinking this. I just don't have the where-with-all to know the difference.

Thoughts? Ideas?

[rlemos]

Hi jckoto3,

The issue you raise is very relevant. While blues might seem easy, it is really very challenging to play convincingly and to build good solos. Also, everyone has their own definition of the blues. For jazz blues, I would strongly recommend listening to Grant Green as much as possible. His playing is very authentic and accessible. Don't be fooled by his economy of notes. His lines are very beautiful and yet he can burn with the best of them. YouTube might be an OK place to start but it would be better to invest in a couple of his early recordings as a leader. I would also add early Kenny Burrell to my list. Once again, as authentic as you can get yet his ideas are possible to emulate. I would also encourage learning licks from BB King, Freddy King, and Albert King. These can be the basis for your own solos. Then start to throw in licks from Grant Green and Kenny Burrell. Combining these sources will give you the ability to play with others and the confidence to start to develop your own style.

Final strong recommendation. If you don't already have it, buy Band-in-a-Box. This is a must have. You will be able to practice tons of styles in all tempos and keys.

I hope this helps.

Ron

[rjashby]

Although the jazz blues form seems simple, it can be quite tricky for a number of reasons. One is that beginning improvisers find it difficult to play extended solos over static dominant chords. The blues form often resolves to a dominant 7th for the I chord (blues in C always having C7, never C6 or maj7 etc), and this sound can take a bit of getting used to, particularly if you're not familiar with a lot of blues music. Also, it can be tempting to overplay during bars I-IV of a blues, as its all too easy for guitarists to wail over some minor pentatonic with little or no direction.
An exercise I learned from a teacher once is to ignore the dominant I and IV chords, and only improvise on the II-V's as follows:
|C7 |F7 |C7 |G-7 C7|
|F7 |F#O|C7 |E-7b5 A7|
|D-7|G7 |E- A7|D-7 G7| etc etc
Although this would seem a bit strange on a gig, it's a great way to simplify and avoid some of the rambling that occurs in the other bars. (And make sure you nail the diminished chord in bar 6, it's such an important part of the jazz blues form).
Also, I suggest listening to groove and modal jazz, get into how the great players remain inventive over long sections of single chord vamps.
As with what rlemos says above, check out all the greats and transcribe.
Hope this helps, happy improvising

[musicjohnny]

+1 for Band in a Box, EXTREMELY helpful tool.

When I first learned to play the blues, it was like almost any other kid, minor pentatonic blues. There, I recognized and developed the power of simple phrasing and making notes count.

Later on when I moved to Jazz Blues, it was very difficult for me. The changes seem to be blowing by and I wouldn't know what to do to highlight them. I started arpeggiating each chord as they went by, and I mean every chord for an extended period of time. At the end of all this, I sat in with some fellas and I realized my playing sounded waaay to much like an exercise - mechanical.

However, I was atleast now able to highlight the changes effectively and effortlessly, but not very musically. So once I had the arpeggios down, I just work over and over on just making actual music. I know, I know, it sounds like cop out advice; but give it a try.

Sit down with a backing track of a Jazz Blues after having listened to some of your favorite players, and start trying to play whatever comes in your head - start simply. You WILL get better and better at this, and then you can explore different devices to use over certain chords.

Never give up, John.

[Kman]

In general, I’ve found that the great blues players mix up the blues scales and generally stick to major blues or mixolydian on the I7 chord.

Try this in C:

C major blues scale or C mixolydian scale or over the C7 chord. As you approach the F7 you can start switching to C minor blues. Also try playing F melodic minor or F major blues scale on the C7 leading to the F7. This gives you that #5.

C minor pentatonic, F mixolydian or C melodic minor for the F7.

For the A7/D-7/G7/C7 play either C major or C minor blues. They both sound great.

The key is to mix things up - don’t play all C minor blues scale. Also throw in some flat 5’s on any chord. I hope this helps!

[mr. beaumont]

An exercise I like over a blues is to break it into parts-- For example, you could think of the first dominant chord as a part, the IV (and whatever comes right after, like the common diminished move)as a part, bars 8-10 as a part, and the final turnaround in 11-12 as a part. Doesn't have to be split up that way, but it's a start.

Let's say you're going to blow on three choruses-- the first time work your more notey phrases into part 1 and 3, and breathe--use silence, long tones, more melodic ideas in parts 2 and 4. The second time through, flip flop. Third, mix it up again, your call.

Ideally, you won't be so systematic about soloing, but forcing yourself to put on the brakes, so to speak, will introduce much needed space in your playing. Record the results if you can.

[Aristotle]

I have a great deal of trouble while trying to play over any type of jazz-blues changes.
If given a half-hour or so, I can come up with some unique melodies that fit the particular jazz-blues changes,
I've tried "playing the changes"
I now have some kind of mental block about playing blues forms, and I need to get over this. Any help on how to approach jazz blues?
Thoughts? Ideas?

I broke up your post to what I see as the key ideas.

This is difficult for me. Posting here has caused me think about things, I never think about while playing, or moreover never thought about. Things that seem either overly dissected on the forum, or dissected from the point of view an unfathomable motive or objective (eg. it’s the sixth mode of the sixth mode). If my ideas seem off the wall to you, ignore them.

One key point is: might as well assume for now, you can’t come up with “unique” sounding blues melodies. If you did, they might not be blue. You’d have hard time finding an idiom more worked over and cliché-based. The basic pitch collections are often a pentatonic frame and you can’t wander too far.

I would consider under the blue heading simple blues, but also moving up to all sorts of “torch” songs covering decades from Makin Whoopie to Stormy Weather to Since I Fell For You (and about 100 more), right on through what is more clearly pure “jazz” blues, to stuff that’s so bopped out, that you might not recognize it as blue.

Guideline 1: simplicity. Start simple, and think simple
I’d start with the idea that you have to let go of the intellectualizing. You have to feel the gravity of the blues scales, anticipate the disruption that are gong to create with your first phrase, ride the wave, and navigate it home.

The scales just want to go back to the tonic. Sure, in C, there will be plenty of licks that end with a short slide up to an E, etc. And yes, there is lot surrounding the note you are headed for, and tantalizing around that spot before you actually touch it. (And yes, I know that sounds sexual, and it should).
Note that on the first Jim Hall vid, and I listened for two minutes, how is lines rise and fall following these simple principles. Don’t be distracted by the occasional chromatic flourish. That stuff comes later.

Guideline 2: Don’t “think” about the chord changes
As I mentioned, blues scales, especially “the” blues scale just wants to go home. It has so much tonal gravity; it drives through the changes, more than hovers over them. It’s up to you to help make it a nice trip.

It takes such a minute inflection of a line for it to fit a chord change. If you consider stuff like simple Motzart pieces or Steven Foster songs that end on a I-V-I. In the key of C, for example, there will be phrases that end on the notes A-G-E-D-C or A-G-D-E-C, a one-note difference. You can hear how sometimes just by changing, delaying or accenting one note appears to make the melody fit the chord change.

Applying this idea to blue tonality, it means only change you basic blue-line patterns to fit a chord change only if you sense the musical need for it and only by slight inflection.

This will work, even as the “jazziness” of the songs increases. If the melody stays on the blue scale, it makes all the common jazz extensions by itself, on turnarounds, on back-cycled substitutions, or just plain secondary-dominant progressions. For example, how many times have jazz instructors said that the #9 and b9 are often used together or separately? Look at a progression in C, if the chords move to cycle from A7, the blues scale gives you C and Bb (the altered 9’s), and when the chord moves to D7 the blues scale gives you the F and Eb (the altered 9’s). Or for that matter, if it goes from C to Am and you stay on the blues scale you have Pat Martino’s first minor substitution.

To illustrate what I mean, listen to Joe and Ella on Stormy Weather. The song is loaded with I-VI-II-V type stuff, and the melody is quite close to a basic blues scale. Also, Joe’s comping shows quite a bit of basic I-VI-II-V with a blue note on top. You can jam right along with this song and never get out of the simple blues scales.

Or just steal a bunch of licks and string them together.

So to sum up, I am suggesting

• Play unaccompanied. Play melodies with blue scales and learn bluesy licks and develop a feel for the natural gravity of the scales.
• Add basic blues accompaniments. Work on fitting your line a bit to accommodate the natural peaks and valleys of the progressions.
• Move on to the types of ballads I suggest, where fitting the scale into the implications of the chords is more subtle and demanding.
• After you can do 1-3, move toward the more pure “jazz types” of blues. The "jazz blues" progression is demanding, and in some ways, not really blues.

IMO, it’s not a good idea to try to do this backwards.

[max_power]

Transcribe. Transcribe transcribe transcribe. It can't just be boiled down to "use this scale over these chords"... blues is a tradition based largely on cliches and standard vocabulary, and if you don't have that vocabulary then you're lost. Someone mentioned Grant Green earlier. You should check out the tune "No. 1 Green Street" from his album "Green Street", it's got some great blues playing that isn't too difficult to learn.

[Reg]

This from Aristotle... is really good advice, in my humble opinion...
"So to sum up, I am suggesting

• Play unaccompanied. Play melodies with blue scales and learn bluesy licks and develop a feel for the natural gravity of the scales.
• Add basic blues accompaniments. Work on fitting your line a bit to accommodate the natural peaks and valleys of the progressions.
• Move on to the types of ballads I suggest, where fitting the scale into the implications of the chords is more subtle and demanding.
• After you can do 1-3, move toward the more pure “jazz types” of blues. The "jazz blues" progression is demanding, and in some ways, not really blues.

IMO, it’s not a good idea to try to do this backwards."

I really like this process... if you can't make the blues sound like blues unaccompanied, your not playing the blues...
And yea it is an established language that needs to be learned before you can speak for yourself.... well actually so is jazz... but that's not what were talking about. Reg

[guitarhedgehog]

Thanks also from me! I was thinking of asking a related question...part of my difficulty is the same as the OP, but it's compounded by playing with a little sax-led group because they like to do a lot of blues. And often in the same key (eg Blue Monk followed by Freddie Freeloader, both in Bb)!

Then not only am I struggling to play something I think is OK, but to then also to think of something that sounds a bit different from the last solo I played.

The answers here help a lot to add to and reinforce what I'm trying to do to become happier with my solos. I'm also trying to avoid always playing in the same couple of "positions" because just the using a different shape blues pattern can give me different ideas.

Thanks again - it's very generous of the expert / pro players here to be so helpful.

Dave

[monk]

The blues form often resolves to a dominant 7th for the I chord (blues in C always having C7, never C6 or maj7 etc),

The blues compositions of W.C. Handy more often than not, use a I major or I6 moving to a I7 at the fourth bar to signal the move to the IV chord which at times was also a IV6. Parker's Blues changes use a Imaj7.

Many blues tunes of the 20s and 30s used a I or I6 for the first three bars, then a I7 in bar four to heighten the move to IV. While some of the pre-war country blues players used purely dominant forms, the style as we have come to know it didn't crystallise until after WWII with T-Bone Walker and the post war R&B players.

Regards,
monk

P.S. On the video The Blues: From Rock To Jazz, Don Mock demonstrates a step by step approach to converting a three chord blues into a jazz blues.

[princeplanet]

Improvising over a jazz blues ain't easy, not at the advanced level anyway. To be able to play any tempo (say between 60 and 320 bpm ), any key, any variation (incl "Bird" Blues) in all positions and outline every chord (when desirable to do so) and mess with a slew of subs at will and still phrase and swing like a champ?

To me that's harder than blowing over ATTYA, Stella, Giant Steps or even more modern non functional harmony tunes. I mean there's players that can sound too academic against blues, and those who just stick to basic blues scale based cliches, sure. But players of sophistication that can still evoke that blues "feeling", well now, that's a whole 'nother level....

So here's a question for yas - Do you think that if you focused on mastering Jazz Blues to a "proficient" level, that you would find playing other standard type tunes relatively straight forward? No doubt you'd bring a bluesy vibe to other types of tunes, but I think that's a great thing when done well (Bird, Jackie Mac, O. Peterson, Wes GB etc etc).

Do you agree that getting good at Jazz Blues first then moving on to straight changes is more of a guarantee that you'll end up being better at both - as opposed to learning Standards for years before tackling Jazz Blues? Sorry for the hypothetical question and yes, I'm aware that most of us learn both simultaneously, but please humor me - if you (hypothetically) played only sophisticated Jazz Blues for your first 10 years and were comfortable with outlining every chord change (not that you would always!)- then what could be missing in your arsenal when then directing your attention to other "tunes"?

I mean, you got major 2-5's, minor 2-5's, turnarounds, half diminished chords, full diminished, all kinds of altered chords, any kind of sub you like, modal mixture yadda yadda... It's all there right? PLUS you got the all important IV7- which is where the rubber meets the road in Blues (methinks). Sure it may not be too useful in most tunes that don't contain it, but a good grounding with it rubs off in many ways (phrasing, call and response etc). It can even inform the way you might handle a VII7 (backdoor) or even a II7. Also Bluesy players have cooler turnaround language, IMO....

[JakeAcci]

Not only do I think you're dead on, but this is actually how I learned to play over standards (in my re-birth) so to speak.

In High School I learned and practiced scales and arpeggios and a few voicings and I would hack my way through some standards but never understood bebop or what jazz language was all about.

Then when I was about 20 I wanted to get serious about actually understanding bebop and jazz conventions and I had a teacher who had me playing really just blues and rhythm changes for six months or so. He didn't specify six months - we were doing lessons sporadically and I wanted to feel a certain level of proficiency with what he started me on before moving on to other tunes. But he did stress that, pretty much as you're saying, if you can handle blues and rhythm changes then the other tried and true tunes are pretty straight forward. Obviously we're in a different world when we get to Monk tunes, Shorter tunes, modal, etc. But for stella, ATTYA, There Will Never be another you, etc,

Here's one quasi-disagreement: I think blues is easy because the form is short and it's easy to memorize. So while you still have to learn to navigate ii Vs and you may choose to apply substitutions or triad pairs or tape loops or what have you, you have the same 12 bars repeating over and over. You may artistically be ok with playing similar vocabulary over other tunes, but you do still have to learn those tunes and their forms, and memorize them. Additionally, be able to hear other changes, even with the same harmonic vocabulary.

[princeplanet]

........Here's one quasi-disagreement: I think blues is easy because the form is short and it's easy to memorize. So while you still have to learn to navigate ii Vs and you may choose to apply substitutions or triad pairs or tape loops or what have you, you have the same 12 bars repeating over and over. You may artistically be ok with playing similar vocabulary over other tunes, but you do still have to learn those tunes and their forms, and memorize them. Additionally, be able to hear other changes, even with the same harmonic vocabulary.

Yes, 32 bar forms are indeed harder to "pre hear" than 12 ! Point taken....

[JakeAcci]

Also worth emphasizing that there is a lot more harmony out there than just these common cadences and subdominants and what not. So again this approach might work really well for the great american songbook kind of stuff, but then there's also the past seventy years!

[princeplanet]

For sure, so, what would be an example of a more modern tune you've come across where all that Jazz Blues vocab would NOT be so useful?

[GuitarGerry]

Do you think that if you focused on mastering Jazz Blues to a "proficient" level, that you would find playing other standard type tunes relatively straight forward?

Anyone studying the genre will get something from the music. How can you not? However, I think how much you actually benefit from what you're proposing depends a lot upon your musical background.

I came into Jazz via playing in Blues bands as a teen, so Jazz-Blues was a logical/natural progression. I already had a framework to build on so a lot of new concepts were easy to grasp, because I could slip them into tried and tested progressions/formats. If you're coming to the music fresh, though, without having gone through the whole blues-lick thing, then I should imagine it's no easier than learning Be-Bop/whatever from fresh. And yes, you'll be able to slip bluesy stuff into other types of progressions, but I wouldn't say it makes playing changes any easier. Especially songs that don't lend themselves to bluesy playing.

That said, a little more soul in our playing is no bad thing, and listening to, and learning, the Jazz-Blues genre definitely helps in terms of logical and lyrical phrasing. So go for it.

[JakeAcci]

Well, a lot of (but not all) Monk Tunes. Many Wayne Shorter tunes I would say the jazz blues bebop vocabulary might sound out of place, especially ballads. Virgo, Infant Eyes.

This vocabulary isn't going to be so useful on modal tunes, or tunes with long stretches of one chord/mode.

And really just anybody composing tunes post 1970, sure there are still going to be some ii Vs, but we're dealing with a lot of other harmonic stuff.

Kenny Wheeler is a great example...but also, as composers, Joe Henderson, Chick Corea, Bill Evans, Steve Swallow.

I agree that the blues (and rhythm changes) builds an awesome foundation for playing older standards.

And then I guess it can depend on what kind of tunes/music you want to play.