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I thought it might be a great idea to start a thread that deals with examples of all the different improvisation methods that are taught and used... All this with a jazz performance prospective. I'm not going to say which approach works best... there are plenty of opinions... has always been . So my goal is to verbally discuss and then back it up with examples....our examples, not memorized, more in the direction of how jazz is played. I'm hoping more of the experts get involved which will help show why different players sound the way they do. I've always believe it helps when the teacher backs up what he/she preaches. I know there are many different levels of players on this forum... with many different goals... maybe some have no goals, simply enjoy the journey...(I always have).
I was going to start a thread on composition... but this seems much more useful and needed. I'll start that thread later.
Anyway... Does this seem like a thread that would work... I play the way I do... but can fake and understand most other styles... I do all the time. Reg
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03-21-2011 10:26 AM
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I think it's a very useful thread.
Since I still haven't figured out how to get my videos saved as the right file extension for youtube, I'll use the recorded music on my website as examples...
I'm probably one of the more vocal supporters of folks (at least beginners) leaving scales by the wayside and concentrating on chord tones--but of course, I break that "rule" all the time. The example I give is the most recent tune I put up, called "Just Don't Know"
The first part of the Groove is an A minor 7 to Bb maj 7 progression, in which the Bbmaj often has the #11 included. Here, I'm most definitely thinking A Natural Minor to Bb Lydian. To get "lydian" sounds, at a few points I play an Fmaj7 arpeggio...(there's my chord tone thinking again)
The second section is a little "knottier," and I'm using a chord tone approach through the whole thing, but again, my hidden chord-scale guy comes out on the altered dominants, where I suppose my lines could be viewed from the altered scale--although at that point I'm visualizing a #5b9 chord...
But there--I said it--they both work, diffeent situations call for different approaches...Next I'll try to do something "in the now" and reflect immediately how I thought through it, probably a standard, because I'm not sure how many folks are going to want to play my tunes!
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I seem to have gravitated to a "play by ear" method. It works pretty well for standards...now that I've put in the time to listen to tons of tunes, I have developed a good feel for all the various harmonic devices, and I seem to be able to navigate over them without too much trouble.
My problems come when the harmony takes an unexpected twist or modulates to a distant key. Case in point, the bridge on Ms Jones...in these instances, I have to think chord-tones of the upcoming key and focus on nailing those during the transition. Once I'm "in" the new key, however, my ear can take over again.
For tunes with crazy (or should I say more challenging) changes, like Moment's Notice, 26-2, Dolphin Dance, or Stablemates, I have to think chord-tones or chord-scales. Although, it does seem that eventually even these difficult progressions do get internalized - I've been shedding DD for several months now, and can finally hear the changes.
On more static tunes (e.g. Impressions, Full House) I tend to gravitate towards pentatonics and 4ths.
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I have gone through different approaches key centers, chord tones and currently like FatJeff am playing more by ear. I am now singing my improvisations and find it such a great tool for getting melodic lines, it also forces me to breathe so I get more of a singing like phrases. I have noticed that I like to play lines which are loaded with notes many of them are chromatic (this is probably a bad habit cause I need to allow more space). In order for me to improvise by ear I need to know the harmony well I need to really hear it so I know what to anticipate, I can not do this on a tune which i do not know well, in these kind of tunes I will probably use a mix of key center and chord tones, but the goal for me is to know the tune well so I can improvise by ear. I have already uploaded some tunes where you can hear this approach (Joy Spring and Have you Met Miss Jones) I'll try to upload some more.
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It takes about ten years to develop as a Jazz musician and my POV is you are going to go through all the approaches over that time. That each has insights and skills to offer. The same as we listen to different styles and musicians over the years to expose our ears and brains, we study different things to develop the thought processes and techniques. I say the ear player is doing the same thing in a less formal manner.
So all of them.
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It might be worthwhile to note that teaching methods and a playing methods have different purposes. Seems to me one person addressed "teaching" and four people addressed using.
Originally Posted by Reg
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OK... thanks for interest... Mr B. you have the idea... preach about a method and post something to show how you really use it...
Jeff eventually we all play by ear when we can... but usually we go through the process of training our ears what to hear. You also get to a point where you can play by ear when reading or hearing new and complex material... again simply the process of training your ears... with more info.
Gersdal... thanks for chart... maybe add rhythm, dynamics and articulations and we can probable start breaking down actual approaches. There is the use of implied or what has been drilled into most ears, as non-played effects, the use of implying something with out actually playing it ... it is a tool that is used... not sure how to or what group to fit into... And as Jay was bringing up, the singing thing... which could lead to outside influences... the other players, the audience etc... and Docbop... if it isn't it should be... all methods, I'm hoping this thread will show the differences of our understandings of what those methods are and the differences of how we use all the methods of improv... and yes Aristotle... I'm not in the teaching business... but am in the business of explaining how methods work with examples... and everyone will get what they choose to get out of the process... My personal goal... overall is as always... make guitar players better musicians...
If we get people teaching or explaining how they use... I'm OK with completely...would like to have those who post with info. or examples of how they use also post with playing examples... This is not at all in the direction of a showcase... Again goal is to have different examples of methods of improvisation. Discussion with example, dialect and debate... to have actual musical examples of discussion... in a jazz performance style. Purpose is to simply make available to those who choose ....This should be fun... were not stopping a war or saving lives... we shouldn't take subject to serious...Reg
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To help with improv I've gotten some of the Abersold play-alongs (ii V I.; Dominant 7th workout; Blues in all Keys), and am getting ready to embark on a course of home study with The Real Book. I figure Autumn Leaves is a good choice to begin with. I can read and have a decent handle on theory fundamentals. Most of my time thusfar (a couple of years) has been spent on developing strength in the left hand and playing scales and arps. I believe that unless you're totally comfortable with reaches and with smoothly connecting chords together, you are fighting uphill and it's no fun. That's why I gave up trying to play jazz some years back; I wasn't ready. I now feel that I am free from physical distraction and able to get the head involved. This is a great forum. I appreciate all the generous sharing of ideas.
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Sounds fun, Reg. Thanks for the thread idea.
I've bantered on and on about the theories I dig, but have not mentioned my own guitar methods much. I really think there are a lot of "right" ways to solve creative problems in art, and this includes jazz improvisation. I never try to push my personal approach (fingerings, shapes, favored rhythmic phrases, etc). Of course, I'm learning new stuff all the time too.
Charlie Christian's method was the first that enabled me to actually play a jazzy solo, not just lame minor pentatonic blues licks. From there I developed more of a Miles Davis inspired modal approach using full chord-scales, but always kept CC's chord shapes in mind. Finally I incorporated a bebop vocabulary into the mix.
Despite these different ideas, I always think INTERVALS, and I have never for a moment just thought "play this full scale and assume it works". The hierarchy of stable/unstable notes has always been of great importance to me.
I also like a lot of non-jazz genres, and I wanted a method that would work for them too without having to relearn/rethink too much. I came up with ways to water down the jazz in my lines/voicings, etc. I even found ways to use my stuff in post-rock and country! Pretty fun. I also play bass, and learned to think "low" harmony, etc.
When it boils down I "see" triads and voice leading between the forms. I extend, and connect the music from there.
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There are many methods, and lots of overlap in each. I like to think in terms of jazz artists who teach. My main influence is Barry Harris, but there are other schools of thought, such as Pat Martino, George Russell, Carol Kaye, Joe Pass, George Garzone, etc. I noticed some of these names mentioned on the diagram above, which is a good thing.
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Psenior... I am also working with the Barry Harris approach. What material are you using?
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Haven't heard about the methods and approaches by Barry Harris, Carol Kaye, and George Garzone. What's the gist of their methods? Originally Posted by psenior
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hey Psenior... yea I'm familiar will all those approaches and methods ... Garzone... maybe being a hybred concept and getting pretty distant from implied tonal areas with organized method..easy to understand... as compared to Martino... would great to have someone post verbal and video examples... and apply to guitar... Which is one of the concepts I'm trying to bring to light... Jazz players don't simple play from changes or harmonic areas implied by melody on most charts. There are many standard approaches which influence the rest of melodic and harmonic material not on the chart. Part of being a jazz player is to be aware of those approaches. Would dig hearing your use of Barry Harris Dim. approach... he's been around a long time. I just don't like dim. chords... but use all the altered tensions with different methods of achieving ... as do others, but is a very thought out and useful methods. I dig his playing... didn't someone come up with a guitar version...What's cool is these guys are still playing...yea this might get to the good part...
I'll try and get something up soon... I host a jazz jam tonight... and am trying to finish some charts ... all the usual excuses for being lazy... Thanks all Reg
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Reg:
First off..great idea for a thread...interesting to hear everyones take on how they approach improv...
Being a beginner/intermediate level player, I proably use what a lot of folks do...CAGED scales and tonal center soloing...use arps, chord tones, chromatic embellishments, upper extensions and major/minor blues scales...as I find myself being able to shift pretty easily from key to key in a song, my ear takes over more and more and I think less in terms of the CAGED scales..
All good for playing "inside", but I find myself needing to use CST more and more as I try to add tensions/release in my soloing..Harm minor and Mel minor ( actually I still use the CAGED system here...I just go to the major scale 1/2 step up from the Dom chord at whatever major shape is closest..although the major 3rd i.e. 11 on the Dom chord sounds a little unky, but it is a start to get the shift under my fingers) and Dim scales.
I guess the answer for me is there is no one magic method, I realize there are no short-cuts,,,playing jazz is hard work with a steep learning curve...I do some research on different methods of getting to the same place and use the one that makes sense to me for how I think of progressions, play and how I hear...so;
focus on one scale to learn==>ingrain the tonality/color==>then apply/use my ears==> repeat with new scale
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I have both of Barry's instructional DVDs, the Alan Kingstone book, and the Roni Ben Hur book. I also have just about every piece of information you can find for free on the internet regarding his methods. That's probably what led me to this forum in the first place. Originally Posted by Jazzaluk
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I have both books as well but not the DVDs. Do you think they are worth getting as well? Do they fill in any gaps? Appreciate any insight before I buy them. Originally Posted by psenior
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Carol Kaye's methods are similar to Joe Pass' methods but more for beginner to intermediate players. She is also the most recorded bass player in history and she teaches how to correctly compose walking bass lines. She's very friendly and accessible. Has her own forum like this one and you can ask her questions directly. Originally Posted by gersdal
I am not an expert on George Garzone, but I think he has rules for using somewhat random triad arpeggios to create smooth-sounding yet outside melodic lines.
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The DVDs are expensive but well worth it. Some of the best money I ever spent. I think it will fill in a lot of gaps for you. It certainly did so for me. Originally Posted by Jazzaluk
I have both books as well but not the DVDs. Do you think they are worth getting as well? Do they fill in any gaps? Appreciate any insight before I buy them.
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I am not a guitarist, but I have sent a PM to forum member, A. Kingstone, who wrote a book about Barry's methods applied to guitar, to join this discussion. Originally Posted by Reg
I agree. I have always loved listening to Herbie Hancock but couldn't get that sound. When I learned he often uses George Russell's concepts, I was able to apply the same methods and started to get closer to some of his chord voicings (altered major 7ths over dominants). Originally Posted by Reg
Barry says everything comes from the diminished. I especially enjoy exploring the altered tensions concept you mentioned because you can end up playing chords with no names that nobody ever played before. They sound very modern but not too outside because they fit the song's harmony/melody very well. Originally Posted by Reg
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I take it you mean method of learning rather than a method of improvising? Originally Posted by psenior
The reason I post is that these comments gave me a flashback to 15 years ago, watching one of those old Joe Pass videos. It's the one where he is showing moving bass lines over I-VI-II-V's. I seem to remember Joe's advice for the walking bass line was that it had to stand on its own "like a Bach melody.' Then as he as he thows in some color tones and melody notes over the bass line, along with the interspersed comping chords, he says, "always have a melody in mind."
I remember thinking at the time if someone could improvise one (Bach-like) line and keep another in his head at the same time, to call up and play at will, would he need to watch this video? I am not sure I can say what Joe's "method" is - and I used his books.
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It's very interesting to understand how different players come up with same pitch collections by using a different approach... which is reflected in their overall scheme or method of improve... A simple phrase can imply a completely different context.
Hey Aristotle keeping the melody in my head is how I remember tunes... obviously some tunes have groove melodies which are more in the Shorter style of building blocks, they work together or independent of each other... don't work as well for me to remember tunes... I like the direction this thread is going... now we just need the good stuff... examples to go with descriptions... Reg
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Wow. This sound like my kind of stuff! Can you describe these voicings more?? I dig Herbie's... everything. Originally Posted by psenior
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Just to let those of you who haven't yet mastered the art of simple soloing...That's a joke... many times it much more difficult to solo in much more traditional styles... developing from melody, staying within more traditional harmonic concepts... Don't worry that's where I will start and try and explain standard methods, conceptions and what to me is almost more important when performing... how to develop the shape and form of your improve. How to get the biggest bang for your dollar... the dollar being you and what you have to say. Really... I'm not selling anything... I'll get something together tomorrow... to start. Reg
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Go for it Reg! I am following this thread with a great deal of personal interest. Since I have become primarily an ear player, (bad eyes, good ears, good theoretical jazz guitar education) the videos you produce are a good way for me to continue learning. Thank you for your very generous teaching process.
wiz
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Man, Reg you are the man.
This treath totally rocks man, this alone could be a life s worth od study....
Thank you so much.
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