What guitar scales to learn?

**Hudsontoronto** · 03-11-2011, 12:09 AM

What guitar scales should I learn to play jazz, I know major caged sys, melodic minor, I'm learning harmonic minor and Lydian diminished, any tips ? Should I learn Hungarian minor or is it too dark for jazz? Have you guys ever heard about : Pebber brown 14 position system? Thats What Im working on. Any tips will be very welcome.
Thanks.

**ksjazzguitar** · 03-11-2011, 01:09 AM

Major, harmonic minor, and melodic minor. Learn those and how to apply them to different chords. That is 90% of what you need. Add in the whole tone, diminished and pentatonic, and that's another 9-10%, depending on what you like.

All those exotic scales? I think that it's far more work than the payback. I used to worry about those, but then I realized that they weren't giving me the sound that I wanted. Being exotic for the sake of being exotic is not very musical, IMHO. But I'm sure that many will disagree with that.

Peace,
Kevin

**billkath** · 03-11-2011, 07:16 AM

I agree with Kevin. What I'm doing is learning the Major, Jazz minor and Harmonic minor in 5 positions, and the modes of each of those scales in 2 positions for each mode-root on E, Root on A. Learning the Arps and chords made from those scales is also important. If one were to learn those three scales, and their modes, and perhaps some diminished arpeggios as well, you'd be well on your way.

**jeffstritt** · 03-11-2011, 10:54 AM

Start by learning the arpeggios and getting all the chord tones under your fingers, after that... like Kevin said, Major, Harmonic and Melodic Minor then whole tone, diminished, augmented.

A lot of players from other genres try to make jazz out to be more complicated than it really is. Those scales we just mentioned are really the building blocks of what you will use to improvise, the "Magic" is taking all of those notes and making some musical sounding lines that work over the chord changes.

It isn't so much about how many scales you know as it is about how well you know them (Every Position, Every Key, Different Fingerings, etc.)

**Hudsontoronto** · 03-11-2011, 11:15 AM

Thanks for the reply guys.
Thanks Kevin.
I already know the pentatonic 5position, I font know the difference between major and minor pentatonic they all sound the same, lol.
I also know major scales in 5position [CAGED system].
and currently I'm working on the [ Pebber brown 14 position system], it is 14 position for each scale, major, melodic minor, harmonic minor, Hungarian minor and Lydian diminished. I'm not working on the Hungarian mode because it is so cunfusing and too much information.
I will take your advice Kevin and practice the major, melodic minor, harmonic minor and I will add to my arsenal the Lydian dimished because it is a very cool sound I think.
Anything that you want to add?
I have somany question about guitar that I could be writing here the whole day.
Have you heard about Pebber brown 14 pos system?
I subscribed to you channel on YouTube , your are good man. Look me up on YouTube I think I have one video of me playing some scales some time last year.
Thanks for all the tips.
God bless.
Hudsontoronto is my YouTube id.

**Hudsontoronto** · 03-11-2011, 12:03 PM

thanks jeff for the reply. i dont know any arpegios yet, but I already know some scales and I can improvisse more or less, sort of like a Gmajor felling , mixolidian tone pentatonic kinda stuff.
I have so much to learn, thanks for all the tips.
Back to practice now.....

**monk** · 03-11-2011, 01:36 PM

Can you play any songs?

**Hudsontoronto** · 03-11-2011, 02:19 PM

Hi monk thanks for the question.
I used to know alot of songs mostly bossa nova songs but that wad before when I used to play classical and use my fingers to pick, for the last years or so I'm learning how to use the pick and play the electric guitar as well.
So that was a really big transition for me, I was atracted by blues and jazz electric guitar, and playing with the pick just makes it more jazzy style look I think.
I know alot of jazz players use finger picking but to me creating lines improvising and running scales up and down the neck is alot more faster and more jazz I'm my opinion.
So my point is: every since I started this new technique u kinda stop learning songs, but I know it is just a matter of time, I need to learn more about scales get them in my mind strong and then move on to learning songs.
What is your approach to this?

**monk** · 03-11-2011, 03:50 PM

If you plan to play with other musicians keep in mind that over 90% of your time onstage will be spent playing backup. I feel that learning to play solid rhythm/comping and intimately learning the melodies to the standards that form the bulk of the jazz repertoire(Great American Songbook) provides the most solid foundation to building skills as a jazz musician.

To comp or play rhythm well you must know the chords to the song. In knowing the melody, you have (along with the chords) the information you need to begin taking meaningful solos.

Even if your interest lies with bebop or later styles, the things you learn playing standards will serve you well.

Remember that playing music is about playing songs. Knowing songs is the key to being able to sit in at jam sessions and connecting with other musicians.

Regards,
monk

**pingu** · 03-11-2011, 07:30 PM

I also know major scales in 5position [CAGED system].
and currently I'm working on the [ Pebber brown 14 position system], it is 14 position for each scale, major, melodic minor, harmonic minor, Hungarian minor and Lydian diminished. I'm not working on the Hungarian mode because it is so cunfusing and too much information.

Holy Crap thats working too hard man .........take it easy
learn a tune or two ,
play the arps round the tune (not scales)
more use , more fun , more music

**Hudsontoronto** · 03-12-2011, 12:00 AM

Holy man, so much work....... So much information to grasp in one day.
I will learn some songs as well, I already know some songs don't get me wrong Iv been playing for 18 years, I just want to get better and be able to improvise in a solo, understand?
Thanks for all the tips.

**ksjazzguitar** · 03-12-2011, 01:17 AM

Originally Posted by JonnyPac

...Study linear lines too to get chromatic tones between the guide tones, etc.

"Linear lines"? OK, that has to be entrapment, you're just trying to get me to pounce.

But I'm not falling for it, I'm keeping my mouth-like mouth shut and sitting on my manual hands.

Peace,
Kevin

**JonnyPac** · 03-12-2011, 01:28 AM

*Poof!*

**ksjazzguitar** · 03-12-2011, 02:13 AM

Uh, has deleting old posts to avoid embarrassment become accepted?

Seems childish to me.

Peace,
Kevin

**monk** · 03-12-2011, 02:39 AM

Originally Posted by ksjazzguitar

Uh, has deleting old posts to avoid embarrassment become accepted?

Seems childish to me.

Peace,
Kevin

Gallus gallus domesticus feces is the official term.

**ksjazzguitar** · 03-12-2011, 03:15 AM

Sorry, I'll use the correct term in the future.

It just seems so childish (especially over something that was obviously a playful poke.) There otta be something in the TOU about it, seems inherently mendacious. Oh well. Kids will be kids.

Peace,
Kevin

**Hudsontoronto** · 03-12-2011, 03:50 AM

That's funny, linear lines, lol.

**Jazzpunk** · 03-12-2011, 05:25 AM

Originally Posted by Hudsontoronto

That's funny, linear lines, lol.

I believe the 'linear' comment was a reference to this book by Bert Ligon:

Amazon.com: Connecting Chords with Linear Harmony (Jazz Book) (9780793561933): Bert Ligon: Books

**Hudsontoronto** · 03-12-2011, 12:03 PM

Os this book any good ? What is it about?

**Jazzpunk** · 03-12-2011, 04:09 PM

Originally Posted by benji123

What does this book means by linear harmony??

Ben

The term 'linear harmony' is just a term the author uses to describe how he views harmony and melody.

From the author:

"Students often conceive of harmony as strictly vertical, as chords spelled up or down. Chords are vertical but harmony and melodies are linear and occur over time. Applying principles of harmony to melodic development helps us think of harmony and melody as one unified concept."

I wouldn't get hung up on the term as it has been known to cause severe bleeding of the mangina amongst some of our socially challenged intraweb 'authorities'.

To over simplify, this book basically uses three different 'lines' that the author feels are commonly used during improvisation as a way to illustrate voice leading, chord tone soloing and the concept of 'consonance/ dissonance/resolution'.

(My apologies to the author if that was not a proper description but it's the best I can muster on one cup of coffee!)

**Jazzpunk** · 03-12-2011, 04:33 PM

Originally Posted by benji123

Could it be that the author may have used the wrong term?

I understand what the author meant by the term but I am no where near being qualified enough to tell you if it is 'right' or 'wrong'! I think it is simply how he views the subject and again, it's nothing to get hung up about imo.

You can check out some of his lessons and see if you like his approach:

Examples

**Hudsontoronto** · 03-12-2011, 06:40 PM

With all the respect to all of you but in my thinking time is money and if my calculations are correct we don't have alot of those two nowadays , so I was thinking, why waste time with this kind of books, if the author perhaps made a mistake or his statement is in some way, shape or form wrong?
It is good to get microscopic about some stuff some times but it is better to look at the bigger picture, to have a more broad view of things, learn in 360 degree, information is all around us.
Read some thing that will motivate you to do what you love to do and will help you get some where with time, I recommend this book: [Chacing the Trane] by John Coltrane. It will make you wanna practice and play your instrument all day every day.Chasin' The Trane (Da Capo Paperback):Amazon:Books
Enjoy, cheers.

**ksjazzguitar** · 03-12-2011, 08:02 PM

Yeah, we've debated the naming of "linear harmony" before. I feel that making "harmony" the noun puts the emphasis in the wrong place since he's really talking about lines that have harmonic implications. To me, the term "harmonic lines" would be more accurate, but I guess it sounds less cool. And the term is widespread now so it's too late.

But I like JohnnyPac's idea of exploring "linear lines." When formed into melodic melodies, they can be quiet effective when paired with harmonic harmonies, and rhythmic rhythms. (Sorry, I was going to let it die at that first playful poke, but when he decided to throw a hissy-fit and delete his post, I couldn't resist.)

Peace,
Kevin

**Hudsontoronto** · 03-12-2011, 08:17 PM

Oh, I know Kevin, I get the joke lol. Check out this book it is really inspiring towards practicing your instrument.
Cheers,
Hudson.

**monk** · 03-12-2011, 08:57 PM

Originally Posted by ksjazzguitar

But I like JohnnyPac's idea of exploring "linear lines." When formed into melodic melodies, they can be quiet effective when paired with harmonic harmonies, and rhythmic rhythms.
Peace,
Kevin

Very helpful for playing jazzy jazz.