Playing over fast parallel movement chord changes

[JonnyPac]

I need some pointers from players on this. Something that no theory book has covered in a way that I find inspiring or easy enough to accomplish.

Here are some common nightmare changes to play over with CST or outlines, due to the fast harmonic rhythm.

One or two beat each:

Bb13 A13 Ab13 G13 |Cmaj7


E7 Eb7 D7 Db7 |Cmaj7


Ruby My Dear type I iii subs with one beat each: Fmaj Gm7 G#m7 Am7 |


The ladder half of the Well You Needn't Bridge: Db9 | Db9 |D9 |D9 | D#9 E9 | Eb9 D9 | Db9 C9 | B9 C9 |


I hope you get the idea.

My problems soloing:

1. I don't like moving a riff or lick around in the same direction as the chords. It sounds limited and like the changes force the line up or down. Playing contrary should be an option over any change, IMO, but these are too difficult to think CST/harmonically specific line with only 1 or 2 beats per.

2. Playing in the general tonic key sounds too dissonant and ignorant to me. For example, playing in F Major over the whole Well You Needn't B section is not good sounding until the last C7.

3. Going "free jazz" or "outside" in a pretty song where these my turn up sounds tasteless and out of character if the rest of the solo is nice and "inside".

Help. Please!

[mtierney]

When Thelonious Monk's players asked how they should solo over songs like Well You Needn't or Epistrophy, he told them to follow the melodies, not the chords; but I agree that a moving riff sounds kinda lame over Well You Needn't. It sounds like you couldn't think of anything better; I also tend to agree with you about being able to play contrary motion. However, Monk was also known for using symmetrical scales like the whole tone scale, the octatonic scale, or the diminished scale. I usually combine the octatonic and whole tone strategically when I play this song (ex: D# Whole tone for measures 5 and 6, C octatonic for measures 7 and 8). This does create dissonance on some chords, but I find that with augmented and diminished scales, the tonal center becomes less clear so it sounds like it could work more easily. I think over Well You Needn't it's tough to sound really consonant in this section without sounding boring as well, and Monk usually sounds pretty dissonant himself.

As for Ruby My Dear, I think you should use a G melodic minor; that way, you hit the three and the seven of all of the chords. While it may sound more consonant with quick scale switching or arpeggios, I find that using that one scale will emphasize the resolution of the chord progression.

The other two are tricky... for the second one I'd probably use Ionian #5. It would have a similar effect of emphasizing the resolution of the chords that I pointed out in Ruby My Dear. I'm not so sure about the first, I would probably treat that like a circle of fifths (A Mixolydian then G Mixolydian), even though that's kinda boring....

Hope that helps, lemme know what you think

[JonnyPac]

Thanks for your input. Most of that at fits my 3. problem stated. Think about the progression without Monk in mind. I don't want "outside" to be the route all the time. I'm looking for something that blends in smoothly.

The G MM over Fmaj7 is not something I'd roll with either. The F# is not so hot. Playing A Phrygian, Am Pent, or F major makes sense as is. That example is the least of my concerns above.

The circle dom idea won't work well with one beat per chord. There is not enough time to voice lead melodies 7-3 style or explore with CST. It all sounds stiff or rushed.

I can play these all day with full measures, but single beats are brutal.

[musicjohnny]

You don't have to outline every single chord you know...

[JonnyPac]

I know. But what else can you play? I have tried a lot of things. Again, these are the problems:

1. I don't like moving a riff or lick around in the same direction as the chords. It sounds limited and like the changes force the line up or down. Playing contrary should be an option over any change, IMO, but these are too difficult to think CST/harmonically specific line with only 1 or 2 beats per.

2. Playing in the general tonic key sounds too dissonant and ignorant to me. For example, playing in F Major over the whole Well You Needn't B section is not good sounding until the last C7.

3. Going "free jazz" or "outside" in a pretty song where these my turn up sounds tasteless and out of character if the rest of the solo is nice and "inside".

[ksjazzguitar]

Agreeing with musicjohnny, you don't always have to nail every chord. I think that the chords on the bridge are fairly non-functional, so I often don't worry about nailing them as much and just target their goal.

If you must work on nailing these parallel chromatic changes, I would suggest working on shifting in the opposite direction of the change. If the changes are moving up, shift down with each change or vice versa. Expand out the changes to give yourself more time. Maybe just loop a few of the chords, oscilating up and down a half-step, like D9 D#9. Then work up to three: D9 D#9 E9 D#9. Start out with two bars each, then one bar each, then two beats each. Take it slow and work your way there.

Peace,
Kevin

[JonnyPac]

Ok, good advise on looping. When you guys are not "nailing" the chord, what material do you draw from? Is there a general pool of notes? Not blues licks, right?

[ksjazzguitar]

For me, it really depends. I may think atonally. I may use blues licks (or at least blue notes.) I often just look at what the eventual goal of the chords are and play something dissonant that will resolve to that. Granted, this type of stuff isn't my specialty, but that is how I approach it.

In the case of "Ruby My Dear", that G#m7 is so fast that I wouldn't even worry about it. Think about, you probably use half-step slides for a beat all the time when you're comping and it doesn't destroy the solo. A little dissonance between the melody and the chords is OK. Playing the "wrong" scale for a beat is no big deal. Heck the whole point of the blues is to play the wrong scale, a minor scale over major chords. I just think of that as part of the jazz sound. Yeah, I wouldn't want to do it for too long on a pretty ballad, but as long as the melody is strong and well connected to the overall harmony, then it's not a problem. If you try to catch that one beat, I think it is going to sound awkward, IMHO.

You may consider transcribing some of the masters and see how they handle it. That's probably going to mean a lot more than any advice we can give you.

Peace,
Kevin

[bako]

Sometimes when I am having trouble hearing melodies to a chord sequence I will work on voicings to expand my understanding.
When I am having trouble with voicings to a chord sequence I will work on simple melodies to free up the chordal thinking.

Dominant chords are versatile. They can harmonize 11 out of 12 notes.
Only the Ma7 doesn't work as a chord tone but even that is connected to the V7 of that dominant.
Example (Bb13---An A note is the 3rd of F7 which is V7 to Bb7)

Knowing that the odds are heavily in our favor I applied the 1st progression to 5 ascending chromatic notes starting on each degree.
I adjusted the notes whenever I ran into trouble. I left the chord names as close the the original as possible.

Bb13-- A13#11 Ab7b13 G13 |Cmaj7#11
D-------Eb-------E--------F----F#

Bb7#9-----A13Sus-----Ab13-----G13-----|Cmaj7
Db---------D------------Eb--------E--------E

Bb13------A13-----Ab13#11-----G7b13-----|Cmaj7
C----------C#----- D------------- Eb--------- E

Bb7b9-----A7#9-----Ab13Sus-----G13-----|Cmaj7
Cb---------B#--------Db-----------D--------D

Bb13------A13------Ab13-----G13#11-----|Cmaj7
Bb---------B---------C---------C#-----------D

Bb13-----A13b9-----Ab7#9-----G13Sus-----|Cmaj7
Bb-------Bb----------B-----------C------------C

Bb13-----A13-----Ab13-----G13-----|Cmaj7
Ab--------A--------Bb--------B-------B (C)

Bb13------A13------Ab13-----G13-----|Cmaj7
G----------G--------Ab--------A--------A

Bb7+-----A13-----Ab13------G13b9----|Cmaj7
F#--------G--------Ab--------Ab--------A

Bb13----A13------Ab13-------G13----|Cmaj7+
F--------F#--------Gb---------G--------G#

Bb13#11----A7b13-----Ab13-------G13--------|Cmaj7
E-------------F-----------Gb---------G------------G

Bb13Sus-----A13-----Ab13-----G13-----|Cmaj7#11
Eb------------E--------F----------F---------F#
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________________________

It is tempting to treat each chord as it's own event but as you note that can sound mechanical. We want our rhythmic phrasing to sound as natural as if we were jamming on a 1 chord vamp. You are already have the skills to play strong musical phrases.
Try playing lines as if the sequence was Em7 Am7 Dm7 G7 Cma7 and then adjust the notes to match the real chords.

To practice this to extremes, play against 12 descending dominants and 12 ascending dominants
To improve at fast changes, take any song that you know well and reduce each chord to 2 or one beats each.

Here's Autumn Leaves A section in such a reduction

Am7-D7-GMa7-CMa7 // F#m7b5-B7-Em7-Em6 //

[JonnyPac]

It is tempting to treat each chord as it's own event but as you note that can sound mechanical. We want our rhythmic phrasing to sound as natural as if we were jamming on a 1 chord vamp. You are already have the skills to play strong musical phrases.
Try playing lines as if the sequence was Em7 Am7 Dm7 G7 Cma7 and then adjust the notes to match the real chords.

To practice this to extremes, play against 12 descending dominants and 12 ascending dominants
To improve at fast changes, take any song that you know well and reduce each chord to 2 or one beats each.

Here's Autumn Leaves A section in such a reduction

Am7-D7-GMa7-CMa7 // F#m7b5-B7-Em7-Em6 //

Very good ideas. I always want to sound as free as if there is one chord, etc.

Bert Ligon just write to me with his advise on this topic too. He gave me some notation to examine. I'll tell you how it goes.

Thanks! Keep the ideas a-comin'!

[rlemos]

I need some pointers from players on this. Something that no theory book has covered in a way that I find inspiring or easy enough to accomplish.

Here are some common nightmare changes to play over with CST or outlines, due to the fast harmonic rhythm.

One or two beat each:

Bb13 A13 Ab13 G13 |Cmaj7


E7 Eb7 D7 Db7 |Cmaj7


Ruby My Dear type I iii subs with one beat each: Fmaj Gm7 G#m7 Am7 |


The ladder half of the Well You Needn't Bridge: Db9 | Db9 |D9 |D9 | D#9 E9 | Eb9 D9 | Db9 C9 | B9 C9 |


I hope you get the idea.

My problems soloing:

1. I don't like moving a riff or lick around in the same direction as the chords. It sounds limited and like the changes force the line up or down. Playing contrary should be an option over any change, IMO, but these are too difficult to think CST/harmonically specific line with only 1 or 2 beats per.

2. Playing in the general tonic key sounds too dissonant and ignorant to me. For example, playing in F Major over the whole Well You Needn't B section is not good sounding until the last C7.

3. Going "free jazz" or "outside" in a pretty song where these my turn up sounds tasteless and out of character if the rest of the solo is nice and "inside".

Help. Please!

Hello JonnyPac,

As one alternative, here would be an example of my pentatonic "system" for addressing these types of progressions while sticking to your three criteria. Here is an example of Mixolydian Pentatonics (Mode I) on the progression (two beats per measure):

Bb13 A13 Ab13 G13 |Cmaj7

Bb C D F: Bb Mixolydian Penatatonic Scale (start on 6th string)
G A B C#: A Mixolydian Penatatonic Scale (start on 4th string)
Eb Gb Ab Bb: Ab Mixolydian Penatatonic Scale (start on 2nd string)
B A G F: G Mixolydian Penatatonic Scale (descend on 1rst string)
E: resolution note for C chord on 2nd string 5th fret

This is only an "exercise" demonstrating using two-notes-per-string pentatonic scales in an ascending line over a chromatic descending chord progression. The G Mixolydian Scale fragment does descend because I am limiting my hand motion. Of course you can switch hand positions to keep the ascending vibe happening. Also, any of the 4 note clusters above has 24 combinations that can mixed-and-matched in almost infinite ways.

You can also extend this concept for really fast moving chords of one-beat-per-measure. Just use two notes per chord instead of the four in my example.

Bb C
C# E
Gb Ab
A B
C

How about backwards?

C Bb
E C#
Ab Gb
B A
C or E

You can also mix and match the two examples above.

Once again, there are infinite "solutions" to these chord progressions. I am sure you already have tried using arpeggios and/or the Bergonzi digital patterns. My approach is useful because you don't have to "think" so much with 2-notes-per-string and it is impossible to hit a bad note in my pentatonic system. There are also many other pentatonic approaches that I cover in my book. I hope that this introduction to my approach is useful as one alternative for dealing with chromatic progressions.

Ron

[JonnyPac]

Thanks Ron! Looks great. I just ordered your book for myself and the guitar store I manage. Can you please freshen me on the mixolydian dominant intervals?

[rlemos]

Thanks Ron! Looks great. I just ordered your book for myself and the guitar store I manage. Can you please freshen me on the mixolydian dominant intervals?

Hello JonnyPac, You are most welcome and "Thank you!" for your support. The Mixolydian Pentatonic Scale formula is 1 2 3 5 b7

In my book, I break all pentatonics into what I call modes, in this context meaning which degree of the scale you start from on the 6th string, using 2-notes-per-string, up to the 1rst string. This means there are 5 modes (or positions) for every Pentatonic scale.

I demonstrate the Mixolydian Pentatonic Scale used over the Rhythm Changes bridge in my YouTube video:

My approach will not make you sound like Pat Martino. However, it will work in a gigging situation where you have to come up with a credible solo over fast changes that you are not familiar with. It will also help you "compose" licks ahead of time that you can have ready to go. Also, the example licks I showed in this post work really well the faster the pace.

Thanks again and best wishes,

Ron

[JonnyPac]

Hot dog. Thanks Ron. That's interesting stuff. be going through it; I may have questions...

BTW can you post this article here in a thread? The title has me curious.

Diminished scales not useful for diminished chords

[drobniuch]

1. I don't like moving a riff or lick around in the same direction as the chords. It sounds limited and like the changes force the line up or down.

Sometimes when something is simple to play on a instrument for a player he think it's lame not becouse it sounds lame but becouse it's easy..

Moving a riff up and down is an adventage of a guitar and a powerfull weapoun.. When I play with a friend sax player he really like when I do the stepping becouse for sax players it's difficult and they are not so fammiliar with the sound of an up and down riff and so do the audience..

I say if something is easy to play make it difficylty
-change the phreasing
-change the accents
-change the tone
-start each bar on different beat
-make a hole in a bar

The Whell You Needent is designed for stepping

[JEdgarWinter]

Hey Johnny,

You might want to check out Bruce Saunders's book Melodic Improvising. Covers this in detail. Great book all around!

My own way of thinking, which is heavily influenced by lydian chromatic stuff, would favor playing up the guitar neck from the lowest note to highest using Lydian scales a whole step below the ninth chords, or lydian dominants off the roots. One thing that is interesting on a progression like this:

D#9 E9 | Eb9 D9 | Db9 C9 | B9 C9 |

is that playing straight stepwise/scalar in eight notes you would play C#/D#/F/G and then end up on G#--a pretty good note-- as the "switch track" for E9. Then, starting on G# (the #4 of D lydian) you might play A/B/C#. For Eb9, your "switch track" is the root, Eb--easy enough, play the first four notes of Eb lydian dominant Eb/F/G/A, and then you might want to jump to the b7 of D and play the first four notes of C lydian, etc.

Obviously, this is just an exercise, and things get more interesting when you add in direction change and intervals larger than seconds. But playing lines through these kind of descending parallel chord sequences, in my experience, is quite doable with a lydian concept, especially adjusting between the "whole step down" sears and roebuck lydian, and the lydian dominant off the root.

Just my 2 cents.

[rlemos]

Hot dog. Thanks Ron. That's interesting stuff. be going through it; I may have questions...

BTW can you post this article here in a thread? The title has me curious.

Diminished scales not useful for diminished chords

Hello JonnyPac,

Please feel free to email me at any time with questions.

As shown below, my two-part article was published in JUST JAZZ Guitar:


Diminished scales not useful for diminished chords (Part 2) Just Jazz Guitar, August 2010.


Diminished scales not useful for diminished chords (Part 1) Just Jazz Guitar, February 2010.


Since these issues are still for sale, I really can't post due to copyright issues. However, I am planning to do a YouTube video that will cover my alternative approach to diminished chords that is shown in these articles which are based on my book.



Thanks again for your interest.


Ron

[max_power]

Sometimes when something is simple to play on a instrument for a player he think it's lame not becouse it sounds lame but becouse it's easy..

Moving a riff up and down is an adventage of a guitar and a powerfull weapoun.. When I play with a friend sax player he really like when I do the stepping becouse for sax players it's difficult and they are not so fammiliar with the sound of an up and down riff and so do the audience..

That's interesting. I saw Kirk MacDonald play this past weekend (Toronto sax player) and he did that a lot... I didn't think much of it at the time, but I guess I'm spoiled by the fact that it's so easy to do on guitar.

[JEdgarWinter]

Johnny,

Just thought of another approach that might work for you. Try this around 7th position on the top 4 strings. Think Lydian down a whole step (or mixolydian off the root), or lydian dominant off the root for the first chord, then arpeggiate a favorite non altered seventh shape: e.g. XX 8 7 5 5 or XX 8 9 10 10, then back to a scale, and alternate through the progression. Just tried it myself: sounds great!

[RunningBeagle]

That's interesting. I saw Kirk MacDonald play this past weekend (Toronto sax player) and he did that a lot... I didn't think much of it at the time, but I guess I'm spoiled by the fact that it's so easy to do on guitar.

Great point.

[JonnyPac]

Thanks for all the input and advise, all y'all. I'll be busy putting it together in a personal way. So much to do...