how to getaway from paterns and play melody

[abdke99]

I practice a lot of scales,patterns all over the neck,but when i try to improvise it sounds just like i am practicing,i don't play wrong notes at the end it is about art, not playing like robots!How to overcome this,thanks

[DMatthewsBand07]

I kind of have the same problem. The obvious suggestion is to learn the melody in several places on the neck and really get a feel for how the song sounds. Once you've got this then check out the lesson on jazzguitar.be about chromatics. Use some of those techniques to spice up the melody. After that then start throwing in your scales and arpeggios. Always have the melody running through your head when you're playing. Base your phrasing on the melody. Even if you're improvising. When the melody is plugging away then take off, if it's sitting on the same note for two measures then take a breather.

[m78w]

Another thing to do is to stop practicing scales and start practicing improvising over tunes/progressions. There is a great book called the Art of Practicing, where the author talks about how if we practice one way and perform another way than performing will always be different. But if we practice as if we are performing, then when we get to a performance there is no difference on the stage than in our practice room. I think this is extremely important in a jazz musicians development as being able to play scales, chords, arps, licks etc is pretty far removed from performing in a jazz group. When we're on stage there are so many thought processes going on, we're reacting to the chords that are going by, we're listening to the bass player to hear any subs he's using, we're listening to the drummer to hear any rhythms we can use in our soloing/comping, and most importantly we're reacting on the spot to all of these and many more curve balls being thrown at us.

So what I have decided to do is that if I want to work on scale, I will take a scale and then practice soloing over this scale on a tune or progression with Band in the Box or other play along. That way I am still working on the technical stuff, but I am also working on motivic development, adding chromatic notes, making moving changes, reacting to the rhythm section (be it a computer), and other performance oriented skills.

Just my two cents.
MW

[Jazzaluk]

I practice a lot of scales,patterns all over the neck,but when i try to improvise it sounds just like i am practicing,i don't play wrong notes at the end it is about art, not playing like robots!How to overcome this,thanks

I think the best way to cure this disease is to learn tunes, lots of tunes! Learn the melodies cold and learn the root movement (bass line). Find target notes in the melody and try to accent and embelish them. IMO this is how to preserve the tune's uniqueness and identity, and create solos that connect with the tune's character.

Memorizing scales takes a lot of effort which may pay dividends after a while...but too much focus on formulas and what scale fits over what chord etc can become a disease that ultimately conditions the musician into believing that a scale is actually music. (Believe me I have done my share of this and now I am totally bored with it...some say it can make you go blind).

Why not spend time learning melodies and deriving your musical ideas from the source. You still need knowledge of scales to embelish melodies but by focusing on the melody you brain is liberated from formulas. Who cares if a 7#11 is a Minor Melodic from the 5th degree...if you like the sound of the #11, just target it as a melodic embelishment and don't just blow by it hoping the listener can recognize it as part of a scale substitute. I think this is a much more beneficial and enjoyable way to to use up your Mental RAM and may cure the scalar sound.

[Goofsus4]

Great comments and advice, as always from others.

I will add this: you only really sound like you are "playing a scale" if you just play straight up the scale and straight down at the same tempo. If you want to stop sounding like a scale, it's really just as simple as phrasing your movements along the scale. Yes, it's generally more interesting if you skip intervals (such as playing an arpeggio), but a lot of melodies don't even do this. Some just move straight along the scale, but may run quickly over some notes, then rest on others. It's the phrasing that gives the melody. Try playing a major scale over a simple ii V I (one or more bars for each so you can have time play something meaningful), but just play the scale straight. But, instead of playing it at the same tempo the entire time, try lingering on certain notes. Play to a certain point then hold the note, then when the chord changes continue along the scale until you get to another note, then hold that note, repeat. Move up three notes, stop, move back three notes, etc. Play a phrase consisting of just three or four notes the same exact way over each chord change and listen to how the phrase sounds very much different each time.

I've heard this advice before too, and I think it is good. Listen to horn players. They have to rest to take a breath, so their phrasing reflects this. Try to mimic this. You have to stop playing every now and then, and hold certain notes longer than others to develop a melodic sound.

Try to pick out simple well known melodies by ear too, such as Christmas songs. You'll see in short order that many of these melodies simply move right up and down the major scale, often times without even skipping any scale degrees. What makes them melodic is the phrasing of how and when those notes are played and how long a particular note is held.

[DMatthewsBand07]

"I think the best way to cure this disease is to learn tunes, lots of tunes! Learn the melodies cold and learn the root movement (bass line). Find target notes in the melody and try to accent and embelish them. IMO this is how to preserve the tune's uniqueness and identity, and create solos that connect with the tune's character."

Exactly. That's what I meant when I said something about keeping the melody in your head when you improvise. Try and phrase in a way that's similar to the way the melody is phrased (if that makes sense). It'll make your solo sound more like an extension of the melody then just technique gibberish... even if you're aren't playing the notes from the melody.

[JohnW400]

one thing my teacher made me do was rather then run arpeggios, I had to write a pattern using the notes in the arpeggio. To make it more challenging he would dictate the time signature (he used to use 5/8 and 7/8 a lot)

Then I would have to learn play my pattern starting with every finger and on every usable string, and of course, It would have to be through the cycles

So I would have to start with my first finger on the 6th string and play the pattern for a measure in C, followed by the closest F, then closest Bb, ect.

Accounting for 4 starting finger per string you could come up with 16-20 or so differnent fingerings for your pattern , and in all 12 keys.

One of the good things about this is that it is not just running an arp. Your actually create something using the arpeggio. It helps you build a vocabulary and help avoid just running scales and such

[abdke99]

thanks a lot

[C.A.JO.]

I still practice scales.... but always in addition to a tune. I select a tune I want to learn and then analyze it. First of all the chord progression, the fingerings, which scales and arpeggios to use. If I find that it sounds good when I play phrygian at a certain point, then I work on the current phrygian scale, and try to play the melody various ways. Then I practice these things for a while until I can play the tune at the original tempo. This way I feel like I "know" the tune inside out because of this ground work.

But I used to run up and down the scales in various rhythms, tempi etc. I don't think that always is a bad thing. I really got to know the fretboard this way, and built quite a good speed. I don't regret that I practiced scales this way, many hours for a year or so. I think it depends of who you are and what you play. But when you know the scales, and don't play wrong notes then I think it's time to get connected to your inner ear....

Practice some ear training.... by now you should know a lot of shapes and intervals.... then use it when you improvise. What to you "hear" inside your head....

[wizard3739]

IMHO, the best way to get away from sounding too scalar is to practise tunes out of the real books. Most of the old standards (Cole Porter, G. Gershwin, Rodgers & Hart, etc....) have great melodies and will help your ability to recognise and use bits and pieces of the scales you have learned.

[mr. beaumont]

i'm a big fan of "try soloing a whole chorus on one string" and "record the changes, sing a solo, and then transcribe what you sang" both will teach you a lot and force you away from patterns...

[ewit]

Maybe this is the obvious answer, but the way to play more melodically is to really listen to your inner ear and to follow it. I think it's truly difficult to do this 100%, maybe it depends on the person. It takes a high level of both concentration and trust.

Put band in a box on, slowly..close your eyes and listen. relax. Let ideas come to you...listen inside. Then, and only then, start playing. Forget about chords, scales, patterns. Just follow your ear and your intuition. You might be surprised!

If you hit a wrong note...accept it for what it is, and let your ear suggest the next note...it will usially pick a note that will make the wrong note sound "right"

The key is to start out slowly so have time to react and find the right notes.

[musicalbodger]

I found that a great way to free yourself up is to find a free improvisation group. Doesn't matter whether it's music, dance, theatre, just so long as it is somewhere you can feel safe and secure making a fool of yourself. You won't, but that security is necessary initially to give you the freedom needed to feel comfortable taking risks.

If you can't find a group, get together with a bunch of like minded friends and do it yourself. There are also some excellent excercises, concepts and pieces to work through in John Stevens' book "Search & Reflect", published by Rockschool in the UK.

Experiencing free improvisation in a group setting where the only rule is that there are no rules is quite interesting. It can certainly help to destroy those nagging doubts that you can't improvise in front of others. Anyway, it's worth exploring if you feel trapped and certainly breaks you out from all the theory and dogma.

That said, ewit, you make a very valuable suggestion. Sort of what I am trying to suggest but taking a different path. A combination of the two will help free you up ernormously.

Don't think scale when you play just try to think melodic line. Don't worry that you might not be playing the right note. Cut down on the number of notes you're playing to one or two per bar and make them mean something. And don't practice scales again for a long time, learn tunes instead, or other people's solos. You'll soon be ripping it up.

[__aux]

I use this trick. First I compose an infinite melodic pattern without rests that contains only quavers and utilizes as much melodic components as possible: Parker's loop, arps, targeting, approaching etc. In fact I don't even compose but just combine the ideas that were transcribed one day from recordings. It takes some time to adjust them so that the final lick is exactly 4, 6 or 8 bar long and is looped.

Say over first bars of Autumn Leaves in Gm

| Cm7 | F7 | Bb | Eb | Am7b5 | D7 | ...

you can create this line based on Cm7 (dorian or bebop) scale and it would sound nicely even over D7 chord. The key point is to prevent this line to sound house-made which is usually achieved by comparing what you composed to those lines played say by Bird or any other MAN.

Forget for a week that word "improvise"... (You'll be back soon) and just learn this line. You should be able to play it at any time starting from any of those 4 bars. After this is done increase the speed up to your maximum and practice it again... Then again and again...

After 3-5 days your fingers will probably ask you to go for a walk up and down the neck from the position you originally learned the line in. That's fine - let them do it But the speed should retain the same, if not the case then take some more time to master it completely...

Done?

Forget about everything and try to improvise Autumn Leaves.

[Claudi]

What worked for me when I started improvising rock 12 years ago and jazz melodies 2 months ago was to sing whatever. No single note I played ever sounded as the ones I was singing but at least I got to achieve good musical metrics. I hope you understand what I mean; I was playing quarter notes, 16s, 32s...Hope you understand me now.
I hope I helped you!

[wizard3739]

If you are going to use BIAB or something similar for your practise, use a lead sheet if you must see the changes but DON'T watch the changes go by with BIAB. Better yet, close your eyes and let your natural musical memory take over your improvisation. If you watch the chords with go by with BIAB, you are not creating anything like a live band situation and when you do play live with a band, you will most likely not be able to recreate most of what you were playing with BIAB. BIAB is wonderful for learning tunes but, (for me) it does create a sense of false security for live playing. Actually, I admit this problem for me with BIAB may be just reflecting a personal problem I have with BIAB, so take my thought with a grain of salt.

wiz

[Holmes Monaco]

i think the best way to get away from the sound of patterns is to just know a lot of different types of patterns and take notes from all of them. learn arpeggios, regular scales, pentatonics, and triads all from every note on the fretboard and be able to jump into any of them. that way you arnt just sounding like you are playing scale or arps, you are mixing them to find a melody.

[Stringbean]

Try to pick out simple well known melodies by ear too, such as Christmas songs. You'll see in short order that many of these melodies simply move right up and down the major scale, often times without even skipping any scale degrees. What makes them melodic is the phrasing of how and when those notes are played and how long a particular note is held.

Yeah, that's the ticket! and you can quickly change key by just traveling up or down the fretboard...same pattern.

[Sailor]

This is a GREAT thread!

I've been a classical player for years and started teaching myself jazz a year or so ago. I've been loving the chords, subs, alternates, melodies, etc...

What is hard for me is the practice of so many modes and scales and applying them. I play mainly old standards Misty, my funny valentine, cry me a river, all those.

This might be a tough question to answer but when I am playing the melodies to these songs am I going through a whole series of modes?? It seems to me that I am basically playing either a major or minor scale throughout with some accidentals. I don't want to "shred" modes all day; I did that to little advantage with all the Segovia major and minor scales, ( a little carpal tunnel though)!

When I play a I - ii - V progression am I playing a major. dorian, and phrygian mode or just a pretty melody??

I know theory follows practice and I really need help deciding how far to go with modes and interpreting melody!!

Thanks, Sailor

[Claudi]

Hi, sailor!

I myself have worked on the modes some time ago.
The modes in a scale are 7 scales from this same scale sharing the same note as the root.
I have to tell you that there are 3 major modes: Ionian, Lydian and Mixolydian; 3 minor modes: Dorian, Phrygian and Aeolian, and a minor mode with a b5: Locrian.

If you play a simple major chord (1, 3, 5) the 3 major modes share these 3 notes.
If you play a minor chord (1, b3, 5) the 3 minor modes share these 3 notes.
If you play a minor b5 chord you have to play the locrian mode which has 1, b3, b5.

The modes work very well in pop music, blues, rock, R'n'R and metal but you have to be careful in jazz music. If you play 4,6,7,9,11,13 chords you will find that they don't share the same intervals equally.

Hope I helped you.

[Claudi]

I want to clarify a little bit more what I said in the last paragraph; When I say that the modes work very well in pop music, blues, rock, R'n'R and metal it's because they don't use to play complex chords, normally major and minor chords and sometime they play a 7th (blues often and 9ths too).
So in jazz it happens the contrary; in jazz complex chords are being used. So you have to be careful when playing 4,6,7,9,11 and 13 chords. You have to find the modes that contain these intervals.

At least you know that when you're playing a major chord you have 3 choices, if you play a minor chord you have 3 other choices and a minor b5 1 choice.
If you play 7ths you'll have 1 or 2, and the same for the rest.

[Sailor]

Thanks claudi - your responses were helpful but I am primarily trying to figure out if you think of modes when you solo OR are the modes an analysis of the melody you are playing. Maybe just semantics but I feel I can play pretty melodies based on major, minor, and pentatonics. Do i need to know if I play a measure in locrian??

Being a lifelong musician you realize how much time has been wasted and how you wished you had better direction earlier.

[Claudi]

Hi, sailor!
Sorry I didn't reply before but I was 2 days away.
You know, when I was young I used to play only the Mixolydian (major) and the Phrygian (minor) modes 'cause these where the ones I was taught to play and I never thought they sounded bad.
I too played only the pentatonic, blues and natural and sometimes the harmonic minor scales with only one major mode and one minor mode and I was happy with them. I thought I was a great rock guitarrist. Now I want to learn more and that's why I learned to use all the modes in every scale. It depends on you; the more you know the more interesting your solos can be.
The modes are not an analysis of a melody but the scale you're playing this solo. You can choose 3 different keys giving them the same note as the root. That's why learning the modes can make your solos more interesting.

You ask me if you need to know if you play a measure in locrian; it's advisable to know the original key of a song/tune when soloing. This way if you play a live version of it you can choose to sound more or less the same or you can choose to sound differently. So yes, now I tell you I think of the modes when improvising. There's nothing wrong with it! I simply think of the scale I want to play at the very moment when playing, that's all.

About your last 2 lines I agree totally with you, but I'm happy that now I know what I need to know. I hope you achieve this, too.

[DMatthewsBand07]

You don't really need to think about which mode you're in for every measure. Just take it in pieces. Generalize groups of three or four chords. Say you have this eight bar section of Easy to Love... it's a Cole Porter song, pretty simple tune... anyway...

| Dm7 | Gm7 | Dm7 | G7 |

| Cmaj7 | F7 |Em7 | A7 |

What you want to do is sit down, and plot out ways to improvise. Rather than saying you want to use D dorian or phrygian, G dorian or aeolian, D dorian, G myxolydian, C Ionian or Lydian, etc. - you want to take it in two or three bar pieces. For instance use any mode of the Fmaj scale over bars one and two. Use any mode of the Cmaj scale for three, four, and five. The F7 stands alone here and you would probably use an F myxolydian there. Then probably a Cmaj or a D melodic minor over the last two bars. It's probably much more efficient to learn how the chords work together in the bigger picture rather than knowing which modes you can play over individual chords. Don't get me wrong knowing what modes work over what is great and it's something that you ought to know - it's just probably not what you're going to think about when you improvise. I guess what I'm trying to say is that rather than knowing that you can use the B locrian mode over a Bm7b5, you need to know that when the Bm7b5 is followed by a Dm, and a Cmaj you're in the key of C. I hope that makes sense. I didn't plot it out real well, I just kind of started typing so if you need some clarification then let me know.

[Claudi]

Oh, sorry, DMathew!
I forgot to say that in rock music guitarrists and other musicians use to play just 1 key or maybe 2 for a chord progression. In jazz musicians play on the key of the chord.