-
I've heard it said in a number of places that some players see the fretboard "light up" (mentally) with the 'right notes' when playing through changes. I've heard Jimmy Bruno say this, and I also read that George Benson claims the same thing. I was wondering if the same was true for any of the players on this forum, and if it is, how the heck did you get to that point?
I'm particularly interested in this concept as how it relates to playing lines through relatively complex changes. I'm feeling pretty good with my blues, ii-V-I and Rhythm Changes improv lately, but when it comes to unusual key changes (esp. to keys distantly related to the current key), I get lost easily and it takes a bar or two of my ear getting "locked into" the new tonality before I can find my place again. Ideally I'd like my eyes and fingers to take over navigation of those rough spots so that my ear gets back on track quicker.
To put this question in context, I'm doing the Howard Roberts "Super Chops" program right now, and I have to navigate through changes playing strict even-count eighth notes, using any combination of scales, arpeggios, pentatonics, common tones, or guide tones. I'm trying to focus on my weakest point, which is playing an appropriate scale from any scale degree no matter where I am on the fretboard. The problem is, when a song goes from, for example, {Am7 - D7 - Gmaj7} to {Bb13}, my head takes way too long to figure out the notes in the respective tonalities. In the first three chords, all the appropriate notes are diatonic to the key of G, which has available note choices G A B C (or C# if going for Lydian sound) D E F# G, and the last chord is probably in the key of Eb, which has notes Eb F G Ab Bb C D Eb. Maybe I just need to drill this stuff into my head until it's quicxk as a snap, but right now it takes me several seconds to think of the notes and it's just painfully slow.
Anyone have any tips that might help me? Do I just tough it out and bash the scales into my thick skull, or is there a better way to think of this stuff?
-
10-12-2010 10:03 AM
-
This happens for me to a degree when I am playing rock/pop or country stuff. So simple I IV V, with maybe a VI or III. We are talking about major scales and pentatonics though. So far, it hasn't happened at all for me with jazz.
I think this came about from playing all that sort of stuff in bar bands and church bands for a couple of decades.
-
Exactly how i see it and have seen it for 30 years.
Someone mentioned somewhere that modal thinking is limited because you have to go from root to root in position. But that just is not the case. Why would it be?
You exhaust the possible notes in position through the roots to the highest and lowest notes.
You do this for every scale you learn.
Within it, are all the components you need to really improvise freely.
You do this everywhere. Until the neck is covered.
If the notes are lights, then the whole fretboard lights up in any scale, arpeggio, triads, triad pairs intervals chord tones etc etc. Plus, you can switch one scale off, say Ab lyd dom, and switch on another, say B Harmonic Maj, in the midst of improvising, and one immediately changes to another.
This means there is no interruption in the flow or direction of the melody.
-
Well, it is good to know that this is possible, but Holy Mother of Christmas this seems like a lot of work. :-0 I presume it's all worth it? Your post is a little vague on the specifics for how to start treading this path. But I am thinking that a structured approach is probably best. Possibly something like:
Originally Posted by mike walker
- Take a given scale to be working on (e.g. Mixolydian - better start simple)
- Play the scale ascending, starting on the root, moving through the cycle of 4ths, on a single string, doing this for all strings
- Play the scale descending, starting on the root, moving through the cycle of 4ths, on a single string, doing this for all strings
- Play the scale ascending, starting on all the other chord tones, moving through the cycle of 4ths, on a single string, doing this for all strings
- Play the scale descending, starting all on the other chord tones, moving through the cycle of 4ths, on a single string, doing this for all strings
- Now repeat the last 4 steps, only this time using two adjacent strings; do this for all possible string sets (6-5, 5-4, 4-3, 3-2, 2-1)
- Once that is done, extrapolate to all other possibilities: 3 adjacent strings, playing in position, playing diagonally, etc.
- Take deep breath. Repeat all above steps for other scales: modes of major, modes of melodic minor, modes of harmonic minor, whole tone scale, diminished scales, blues scales, bop scales, etc. etc. etc...
I bet singing the note names aloud as I play them would be helpful.
I'll probably be 87 years old by the time I finish.
FWIW, Mike, your recent posts in another thread are what got me to thinking about embarking on the chord-scale path. Up to now it's seemed too difficult for me, and I've only really used arpeggios, shapes and the key-center approach. Not that I've mastered those, but it feels like now is the time to explore alternative ways to think about tonalities.
-
Re-reading my above post, I think I left out a critical component of practice that will help me get to where I want to be; namely, moving from one chord to the next. All the above work is preparatory. Necessary and useful, but once I get to that point, I'll then have to take it to the next level and practice moving from one chord to another in various permutations.
Looks like I got a lot of work to do.
-
I did all the above FJ.
Get your scales down in position from lowest to highest note in position.
This means in an F maj scale in first 5 frets, you end on A on the top string.
It means on an Eb ma Scale, in the first 5 frets, you go up to Ab, 1st string, down to F on bottom string.
Take one Scale type at a time. Sing the notes. Have a drone in the background, stop on the 6th occasionally so you hear the sound, feel the sound, experience the sound, against the root. Do the same with all the notes.
Go up the neck repeating this process. Then link these positions together.
Once you can see this 'chain' find ways to melt the links together.
Then begin your process above.
Always improvise with each stage of the process. Play freely. Allow yourself to hear something before you play it. If you don't get the notes right, at least you'll get the rhythm right.
Do all this with one scale type.
Give it a finite time frame each day. Each day leads to the next. You do the 2nd day because the first day is completed. Small amounts. Bite size chunks.
It takes time.
Constantly switching from one holy grail to another takes longer.
Remember, all the arpeggios, shapes, triads, are contained within the scales you'll learn.
I never really think of this stuff anymore. I just feel it. I don't learn licks, because i want to experience the music as it happens.
This is dangerous. Folks might not like where i take it. But i love the danger too much to give credence to what folks might think. And the music is alive, and it exists now, and now, and now.
-
It has been a long process but the lights on the fingerboard are getting brighter still not laser beam bright. I had been thru all the CST and Modes stuff, but when I got into arpeggios and playing them thru changes for songs connecting to closest chord tone was the start. That started the seeing the scales/modes with chord tones jumping out. Then expanding that to full arp up to the 13th and doing same thing playing thru tunes. Then the next thing that help was seeing the fingerboard in small pieces. i had stopped playing music for a long time and got back playing bass. My teacher had me playing scales on one string, then two, then three. That got me in to see the scale in I guess the term is upper and lower tetrachords. Using that I no long need big fingering patterns i could play what I want from anywhere. I expanded that on my own to all the minors and modes. On bass it was simple because the tuning is symmetric even adding more strings. Now I'm trying to do the same thing on guitar just having to get used to the B-string adjustment.
So all this process is moving the fingerboard to being a 132 beams of light.
-
I studied with Ted Dunbar when I was a teenager thru a grassroots program called Jazzmobile.
2 semesters of 25 classes of 5 hours for about 50$
He always emphasized fingerboard knowledge and would say things like the whole universe is contained in 5 frets.
Translated that's 2 1/3 octaves of the chromatic scale including 1 unison.
I have used and continue to use far too many forms of torture to describe here, but listing a few.
1. Major, Melodic Minor, Harmonic Minor, Harmonic Major, Whole Tone, Diminished, various Pentatonics and Hexatonics from lowest to highest tone in the position
2. Ma7//7th//Ma7+//7th+//Ma7b5//7thb5//mMa7//m7//dimMa7//m7b5//dim//Ma7sus//7thsus
arpeggios from lowest to highest tone in the position
3. same 7th chords voiced in 24 inversions (fingerings too hard to play I practice broken style)
4. Extensive harmonizations of the various scales (intervals, common chords and those harder to name)
parallel and also voice led thru scalar interval cycles as well as chord pairs.
5. Transposition to 12 keys in one position when possible
6. Transference of material big and small to unisons and octaves all over
I use 2 basic tools to organize fingerings
1. 5 fret position
2. string group concepts
It took some time to realize this but a few strong foundational tools are:
1. seeing the intervals
2. seeing the common tones and adjacent tones in harmonic sequences
3. seeing the multiple meanings of each structure in relation to each chromatic root (within major,minor and dominant functionality)
I tend to view everything as note collections, hearing and understanding what intervals and colors each note has to offer. Modal practice is the context that I learned to hear intervals in relation to chords.
The short answer:
Do lot's of stuffs and pay close attention on many levels.......
over a period of time
Always make it as musical as possible.
If a concept or sound is known it will emerge in our playing.
I try not to force the issue.
Ted Dunbar used to tell us that it is not enough to have a good idea but you have to know where to find it.
I work on having good ideas more consistently and playing well with others in the sonic sandbox.
And of course the torture continues, only I never found it painful.
-
Thanks for the comments so far everyone. Helpful to know that I won't be the first to go through this hard work.
-
It doesn't stop (hooray!!)..... Originally Posted by FatJeff
After i had learned all this stuff, i began to edit the scales etc, writing my own
sound combinations. I use these for composition and improvising.
It's a lot of info. But if you go easy, in your own steps, you'll get to a place where all this stuff comes to you in a natural way, like the words you use in conversation.
Good luck, amigo.
-
Great advice from the usual suspects... cool . Hey jeff . I listened to your playing, you sound great... but I heard only fairly simple classical style pieces... they sounded great... but jazz has a lot more going on and usually with a little more tempo. Do you know your basic two octave scales starting on each degree? Ex.
Gmaj. in 2nd position, Amin. (dorian) 4th position and on up the neck, all 7 positions with each scale starting with 2nd finger on each root, that's how I started, I don't use them all, but I can and when I read, which I do at most gigs, I don't need to look at neck.
Back in the stone age...I learned all scales and modes of each scale etc... how ever you want to look at it, as well as my arpeggios from that point of view.( 2nd finger starting on root, 2 octaves), stretches with 1st finger and 4th finger as needed.
I felt it made more since, at least for me to get, for example one scale, like Gmaj. and all it's modes,( A dorian, B phrigian, C lydian etc...) down before I started to transpose to the rest of the keys. I wanted to develop my ears to hear each scale and it's degrees or modes... I figured the rest would simply be mechanical... (it was). Anyway I first got down Nat. Min, then Melodic and Harmonic minors. And eventually Har. Maj and all the rest yada yada... I use to practice playing chord progressions.... tunes and other progressions I put together just for this practice... buy playing scales for each chord, and try and stay in one position, obviously sometimes 2 positions, same with arpeggios. My mechanics and more importantly, my ears... became dialed very quickly. I did this while I was in High School on my own, I did have traditional lessons, piano and trumpet and eventually Guitar. My piano teacher hipped me to jazz. I also had the Baker books, and other not as good material. Eventually a few years years later when I went through Berklee is was a piece of cake, playing wise. I was a comp. major and my ears and brain were exposed to a whole new world... I gigged all through college, at Berklee and in L.A. I still like my old approach, and Berklee's was very similar... I hope this helps... let me know something's not clear.... Best Reg
-
Thanks for the tips Reg. I've been at the jazz game for about a year and half now, going on two years I guess. I've gotten the modes of major down pretty well, and I've been focusing on getting the melodic minor sound into my fingers and ears lately. It's just slow going with me. Takes a lot of drilling to get these shapes into my fingers and the sounds into my ears.
I don't play a lot of classical much anymore. Not that I don't still love it, but I'm in a jazz studies program so I just don't have the time.
-
The different 7 note scales contain only one different note from each other.
C-D-E--F-G-A-B-C
C-D-Eb-F-G-A-B-C
C-D-E-F-G--A-B-C
C-D-E-F-G-Ab-B-C
A-B-C-D-E-F-G--A
A-B-C-D-E-F-G#-A
A-B-C-D-E-F--G#-A
A-B-C-D-E-F#-G#-A
C-D-Eb-F-G-Ab-B-C
C-D-E--F-G-Ab-B-C
On this level you mostly already know the sounds, intervals and fingerings if you know the major scale well.
Studying comparatively can make life easier than viewing each item as independent.
-
So what I think you are saying is:
Turn major into melodic minor by flatting the third
Turn major into harmonic major by flatting the sixth
Turn natural minor into harmonic minor by raising the seventh
Turn harmonic minor into melodic minor by raising the sixth
Turn harmonic minor into harmonic major by raising the third
-
That's correct. Those are a few scalar examples illustrating commonality.
Scales, chords and arpeggios that you know can be a reference point to pivot to other similarly constructed material.
4 scales derived from the common 2 octave major scale fingering PDF attached.
-
Well, for what it's worth, last night I did spend a little bit of time playing with the mixolydian scale. First I played in G (from F) on the 6th string up and down the neck a few times, singing the notes as I played them. After that, I played in position, again starting from the F by extending my index finger down on the 6th string. It's weird, I thought I had the mixolydian sound pretty well ingrained in my head but when I start with a scale degree other than the root (in this case, the 7th), it definitely sounds foreign. My ears are not immediately locked into the sound. So obviously I need to to spend more time with this.
I didn't take this to other keys or strings, either. Kind of disappointing - I expected to have this nailed right away, but as I mentioned, I wasn't hearing the sound very well, so I worked it for perhaps 15 minutes before moving on to other things on my practice list. Needless to say, no notes were lighting up on my fretboard.
Looks like this is gonna be a long haul. But, the journey has begun.
-
Don't look for results so early. Originally Posted by FatJeff
Don't ask too much of the info too soon.
When you were a kid learning to speak you weren't desperate to learn a vocabulary. It just came. Day by day. Until you could express yourself with words in a myriad of ways.
And really try hard not to take in too much info. Work the info in small bites.
I was a professor in Germany at a Music Hochschule.
I didn't know any German when i got that job.
I sat in a restaurant. Everybody talking. Sounded like white noise.
One year later, it was like someone had tuned the radio to a conversation station. And i was eavesdropping suddenly.
And when i realised, I laughed out loud.
Be aware. When one note changes in a scale, a whole new sound is born.
Treat these sounds with care. Take your time and enjoy the journey.
-
This blew my mind the first time I realized it: take a major scale and raise the root ==> it's the altered scale (super locrian)! Originally Posted by mike walker
Gb Major scale: Gb Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F Gb
G Altered scale: G Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F G
-
With this guitar, you can program in a Grant Green or Coltrane solo and just follow the lights.
-
Whoa, which note do you play on the B string?
-
I wondered how long it would take someone to post a link to that thing. Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
-
Hey Bako... I dig all your posts... and rarely disagree with your methods...but I disagree with your approach to learning and understanding scales.... I understand your approach and can easily play and hear scales comparatively.... but that's because when I hear, for example, Cmaj... I hear all it's modes because I have a strong and complete understanding of what C maj. is and implies, or can imply, from independent study of C maj. I can definitely hear when young or beginning players don't understand all the implication of what there playing... I'm using Cmaj. for simplicity. As Mike was was saying... change one note and a whole new world is opened... with implication you may not be aware of. Or even better... BDLH's "a man doesn't know what happiness is until he's married, by then it's too late"... great metaphor... My point is when you start learning scales comparatively, changing one note... might be easier to get at first, but the point of reference doesn't always work. And personally... begins to have that guitar noodle sound... In the end... when one develops musicianship.... who cares how you reached that level... But I can tell you from years of being involved in music... most don't reach that level of musicianship. Again may not be important... but is to me... and my only goal for even posting on this forum is to raise the level of musicianship of guitarist...Best Reg
-
Reg,
"change one note and a whole new world is opened"
Great line and certainly true
To me it is also true that a collection of 7 notes with 6 in common share some elements beyond just the fingering similarities.
The noodling guitarist as an archetype, generally is one who is moving the fingers without really listening or projecting clear ideas.
Not a desirable situation.
If every scale and chord is viewed as an individual entity, well then there are a hell of alot of them to memorize.
I look for principals that unify information and sounds. The process of modifying a fingering/formula to find a scale is transitional to instantly knowing the structure by it's own merits. Like using knowledge of the note C to locate a B note, not the ideal but a transitional learning tool. I was suggesting this to Jeff based on what he expressed.
Your gigging life sounds like a year long marathon version of my busiest 5 weeks. I am glad that you take the time to share your experience and viewpoints on the forum.
Best,
Bako
-
I think one thing that is very important for a guitarist is looking at all of the arpeggio shapes that fit into a chord, as well- for example, if I'm playing over a D minor arpeggio (just for example) and am playing in C major, if I can clearly 'see' the fingering of that arpeggio in the scale, I can adjust my focus to the chord-tones of D minor.
That's something that piano gets automatically that we have to work on, alas.
-
Hey bako... Please don't take my comments as negative , you have all my respect and I can't believe how detailed and informative all your posts are. But there are basically only twenty one individual entities, and many of them have similar function. Once a student takes the time to go through Maj. and seven modes or scales, they have a functional and organizational system. Then as they open doors to rest of harmonic and melodic material... they have perspective and the pieces fall into place very easily. After fully understanding Maj...I then relate Melodic and Harmonic from Natural Minor of Maj. Symmetrical scales can be explained mechanically, and all the folk scales are versions of...
My experience with transitional methods in music are that they tend to be built from incomplete principles, although momentary results may be great, with out completing the process... many assumption are result of lack of information. Not always... but very often... Everyone has talent... not everyone has motivation...
I'm not trying to push the " must know everything in order to know anything", but there are basics. Best Reg
Reply With Quote
Moffa Mithra
Today, 08:31 AM in For Sale