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Hey Docbop..good to see soem other bassists getting int o jazz guitar.. Took me a while to get over that damn B string shift...not to mention thinking of 7's and 3rd's versus roots and fifth's...
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10-14-2010 09:39 PM
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Reg,
Not taken as negative, but I am interested in understanding your viewpoint better and on what if anything we disagree.
"twenty one individual entities"
Do you mean Major, Mel.Minor, Harmonic Minor modal extensions?
28 w/Harmonic Major?
Major harmony can be studied to understand functional harmony and serve as a model when expanding to a larger harmonic palette in the same way that learning 1st position thoroughly informs playing all over the guitar. Yeah and it makes sense to relate the minor scales to natural minor, after all that is the source of the minor key signature, although there are many instance of parallel major and minor I chords.
I was making an assumption that Jeff knows the tonal organization of the major scale based on reading some of his previous posts and that he was stuck trying to retain too many shapes. It is often just guesswork here and every now and then we get it right.
I don't know the shortest path to mastery or even competency and I am still actively trying to learn many things.
I never know whether an approach will be helpful for someone else just because it worked for me. We are not starting in the same place.
Many approaches are transitional and every concept has limitations.
We run into trouble when we attempt to use them for tasks that they are not designed to do.
Many paths to confusion. Motivation and finding the correct puzzle pieces keeps us moving forward.
It's a good day if I am a little smarter than I was the day before.
Best,
Bako
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I appreciate this post, thank you, as this has been, and continues to be my approach to learning to improvise - although there are some useful hints in what you say as to good ways for me to continue. I have never felt a tendency to start on the root for each new chord. Plus of course all the appegios are contained within the scales anyway, so it is perfectly possible to become familiar with these shapes as you learn the scale shapes.
Originally Posted by mike walker
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Looks good on stage too! Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
With this guitar, you can program in a Grant Green or Coltrane solo and just follow the lights.
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If you play like crap one night you can blame it on a bug in the system.
Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
With this guitar, you can program in a Grant Green or Coltrane solo and just follow the lights.
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Hey Bako...Yes, the majority of jazz is composed from those basic harmonic areas. Not much using Har. Maj., some V7b9, nat.13. Originally Posted by bako
Yes and I always start with major harmony to explain function, most can hear easily.
Parallel Maj. and Min are always my first examples of modal interchange, since that is part of the source of methodology. (and has history in traditional theory)
Learning and understanding music basics is completely different from performing or improvisation... being aware of what patterns, notes or dotes on the guitars neck, sound "good"can work, and eventually through trial and error... one can develop a voice when soloing, but understanding why those notes sound good can also work but is a different path... I have always wanted to be able to explain to my self why...
Again I teach understandings from beginnings or in the case of lighting up the fret board... root positions and on. Once a complete understanding of one scale and its modes is learned I move on. After the basic harmonic sources are understood, relationships between them are explored and that would be where I would think transitional methods would begin to be useful.
I like your good day metaphor... it appears all your days are good... good choice
Best Reg
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Reg,
Sounds like a very solid curriculum.
"I don't believe myself to be a good Guitar teacher... I almost value the goal of making guitar players develop musicianship more than their personal goals, and don't compromise very much..." (a Reg quote from another thread)
My favorite teachers were always those that aimed beyond the highest common denominator and offered a helping hand to those making a serious effort. It sounds like you are of that school of thought.
You do a good job here of bringing solid information here and presenting a clear image of what professional musicianship might look like.
I look forward to your developing movie making efforts.
Best,
Bako
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Hey Bako... thank you... The videos, are coming... Reg
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I relate every scale to a chord shape. When I visualize the chord shape I can see the scale. The more you practice, the easier it gets. Key word is "practice".
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When a student comes and says 'I want to play like Alphonse De Crumble' or A N. Other, I have to listen and assess what it is they need right now because, often, their understanding of what they know is light years away from what they need, to play like Alphonse De Crumble, (which usually involves improving general musicianship).
When i break down the elements of Alphonse's understanding, they often look slightly perturbed (oh no...this looks like a lot of work...)
I want it, and i want it now, has always been the enemy of music.Last edited by mike walker; 10-18-2010 at 05:57 AM.
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Alphonse De Crumble was a horrible jazz musician. Why would anyone want to sound like him? Instead maybe they should emulate some real jazzer, like Kenny G. :-)
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Isn't this the whole point of the "5 Fingerings" that JB teaches? So that eventually you "see" what note you want to go to? I've found that it has helped a great deal for me even in non-jazz stuff. I'm starting to see the fingerboard as intervals and as long as I can find that root note (which is usually my downfall) I'm doing well.
I keep going back to what I've heard from a few old-timers: They didn't have computers, TVs, cell phones, nor everything else to distract them. They'd go out into the field or plant or other job an work for ten hours a day. Then they would come home, eat supper, and play music all night. If I played two or three hours a night for my entire life, I would be damn good at what I did! Even if all I did was play cowboy chords, those would be the best damn cowboy chords you ever heard!
~DB
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I see you're up on the new JB lingo. :-0 No more "5 Shapes" - now it's the "5 Fingerings." I wonder if that was a legal thing after the split. Originally Posted by lindydanny
In any case, yes, I think that is what he's talked about in his videos (the one on his old website). At my current level, I still relate everything back to the root of whatever chord/scale/key I'm in. The improvement is that I no longer have to have that root on the 6th string - it can be anywhere in the general vicinity of where I'm playing.
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Just wanned to greet you with a nice vid.
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My entire effort on jazz guitar has been devoted to the legacy of Alphonse de Crumble.
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There's a hell of a lot more than 5 fingerings fella. But if that's opening up new doors you should go with it. Originally Posted by lindydanny
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Alphonse is humbled by the rabbit and perturbed by fatjeff.
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Brilliant line! So very true! may I appropriate it? Originally Posted by mike walker
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I've been working on just the dominant 7 sound for several days now. Just playing in position (5 positions per key), then up/down two adjacent strings. Maybe I'm taking an over-intellectual approach to this, but I ultimately want to be able to say something to the effect of "there's a G7 coming up...so I know I can target these notes and get that sound," and then be able to target those notes and use surrounding notes that are in the dom7 scale. It looks to be a long process (this stuff takes forever to get into my brain), but I think that slowly it's sinking in.
So yeah - I do want it and do want it now, but it doesn't look like that's going to happen. :-0
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FatJeff, & anyone who can help from experience...
I am working on the entire fretboard: positions, arps & chord grips
as INTERVALS. I don't have the sort of mind that allows me to look
at the neck & see several frets covered with interval labels, but
it is all getting better. This is a moveable pattern as opposed to the
pitches, which are an absolute, or unmovable fretboard pattern.
I've already spent a fair amount of time visualizing (memorizing)
my ii-V-I's, I-vi-ii-V's, etc. as root movements on the fretboard.
Two things: at a certain point one must come to grips with & learn to
try & enjoy the donkey-work rote memorization jazz seems to require;
and, seeing a IImin7 as the 2,4,6 & 1 intervals seems worth the extra
effort. Of course, ultimately one must be able to spell the keys this
way from memory. I've a major commitment for this planned for later.
I guess one could reverse this order of study just as well, too.
I say all of this from the perspective of career student, I'm not a real musician, so fire away accordingly.
Long Live De Crumble!
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Appropriate away, sir. Originally Posted by NSJ
Brilliant line! So very true! may I appropriate it?
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We want to be free in our expression.
We don't to be lick lead.
Why? Because the lick might have absolutely nothing to do with the music,vibe, intensity etc that is happening at the time.
Melt the bars of the cages.
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You mean you don't like to hear guitar players that sound like Bingo machine of licks. <grin> Originally Posted by mike walker
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Agreed - although it is fine line for me at this early stage between true improv (which I can do, but only more or less diatonically), and copping licks (the surefire way for me to get certain of "those sounds" that I like). So, I just learn some licks and know they work in certain situations, and then later as I fill in the gaps of my knowledge, I start connecting things mentally and am then able to alter them on the fly to my liking. Originally Posted by mike walker
For me to melt the bars, I have to see that they're there in the first place.
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I think copping licks is cool, as long as you have an understanding about what you like about it. That understanding is essential to improvising with the components of the licks you favour. Originally Posted by FatJeff
Those bars will melt eventually fella.
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How is the Steve Howe 175?
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