The key center approach

[jayx123]

I would like to hear your thoughts on this and if any of you use this approach.

I play by key centers, I have tried other method such as the arpeggio - guide tone, and found the key center method the best for creating melodic phrases. Although this method does not truly outline the harmony I have found that melodic phrases using this approach will cover this "flaw". another downside to this method is that you need to analyze the tune harmonically but once you do this a lot of time your analysis will be quick even in real time.

I was lucky my teacher was not "hooked" on one method which is the arpeggio guide tone and switched me to the key center approach.

I really like this approach because I view it as a foundation layer on this layer you can of course add the arpeggio - guide tone, and use other scales such as the melodic minor and so on, using side stepping, triton subs and so on (but in doing so you need to find the connections to the key center) but never the less, great results can be achieved by using only this foundation layer.

[timscarey]

I usually start students out with this approach because it allows tem to use their ears more so than arpeggios. I like to take a mostly diatonic tune like autumn leaves, and say..

"just play in G minor the whole time and raise the 7th on the Am7(b5)----D7(b9)" it tends to get people going faster, once they can make it through a few tunes I pull out something like "Dindi" or "Lady bird" and the arpeggio studies begin.

I actually use this approach a lot when I solo, especially on long vamps or diatonic loops. I tend to "break the rules" a bit though changing the 5 around on major and dominant systems and changing the 6's and 7's on minor to name a few alterations.

[merseybeat]

If the next few bars contain a single key center then I like to use it! As you say its great for creating little melodies! And I bet if you analyse what your doing when your relaxed, you are still picking out those 3rds and 7's without even thinking! (Always on the lookout for a V chord though!)

I love arps because they prove I'm in control but man if you solo just using arps then you will bore the world and his partner! Mix and mash!

Eddie

[fep]

I think it's a fine approach... just one approach you should be able to use.

I think one should train themself to hear the changes and be aware of the chords being played while they solo. With the key center approach you can jam away without being aware of where you are in the chord progression... this is a bad thing imo. However, you can use a key center approach and be aware of the chords.

If I'm in C as a key center and the chords are

Cmaj7 | | Em7 A7 | Dm7 G7 | Cmaj7

I consider that C# in the A7 chord a gift from the composer and it's going to have a lot of color and... I'm usually going to include it in part of my line (I'm definately not going to try to avoid it). I'll often throw in a Bb over the A7 also, which is another very colorful note.

A problem with the key center approach is it doesn't include these kind of notes.

But it's a good approach for beginners to get into jazz.

[P4guitar]

First if the key center approach works for you then that's great.

It didn't work for me and I found it very frustrating as my solos were vague and sometimes off.

I finally figured out how to use chord scales and chord tones and that's been my foundation ever since. One can play single lines without accompaniment and yet simultaneously define the changes.

There's a famous audio of Metheny giving some student a lesson. The student played key centers and while his lines didn't clash, they didn't say anything either. Then Metheny demonstrated how chord scales and chord tones help outline the changes to tell a story. Some may say he only used chord tones to do this - I don't know. Ultimately one must learn how to outline the changes by touching the chord tones - learning chord scales can help get one there fast.

Using key centers with added chord tones may do the same thing, I don't know but I'm dubious. YMMV

[jayx123]

I finally figured out how to use chord scales and chord tones and that's been my foundation ever since. One can play single lines without accompaniment and yet simultaneously define the changes.

Why do you need to define the changes when the bass and keyboard do that for you? Isn't you goal to create melodies?

In a guitar trio that's different, you will want to outline the harmony but you can do that by also inserting chords occasionally.

[jayx123]

Always on the lookout for a V chord though!
Eddie

You are so correct, I consider that lookout as an integral part of the key center approach because it defines a place of tension in the progression.

When I just started learning the key center approach I would mark those dominants on the page and using it as a place to introduce tension. After doing that for a while you begin will hear and recognize these places.

[Reg]

Key centers are best used as general outlines, reference points for what your saying. When players use as main source of harmonic or melodic material, generally sounds like noodling... not always of course... Reg
Hey Fep do you really play Cmaj7 / E-7 A7 / D-7 G7 / Cmaj7, I think even in really straight settings I would play... C6/9 (B7b13)/ E-7b5 A7b13 / D-9 G7b13 / Cmaj7 / Just makin ya think... Best Reg

[P4guitar]

Why do you need to define the changes when the bass and keyboard do that for you? Isn't you goal to create melodies?

In a guitar trio that's different, you will want to outline the harmony but you can do that by also inserting chords occasionally.

In a solo guitar context a key center system won't define the changes enough to guide the audience's ear. Punctuating with chords will help but will be lacking IMO. To play solo faster, the use of intervals, triads, and block chords will be helpful but playing them well almost implies chord scale/guide tone abilities so why not use that skill set?

Even with other instruments defining the harmony, there are tunes where the key center changes so rapidly that one is effectively executing chord scale/guide tone methods - for example some of the Coltrane material (e.g. "Giant Steps") is not suitable for key centric playing. There are other situations where it may be desirable to outline different changes than what the rhythm section is playing, in that case the key center approach would not provide adequate definition of the alternate substitutions.

[jayx123]

Even with other instruments defining the harmony, there are tunes where the key center changes so rapidly that one is effectively executing chord scale/guide tone methods - for example some of the Coltrane material (e.g. "Giant Steps") is not suitable for key centric playing.

Giant Steps can be improvised over using the key center approach, lets see which is simpler at constructing melodies:
5 positions of major scale * 3 key centers = 15
10 (chords) arpeggios * 5 positions (of 2 octaves) = 50

I don't understand how you can create melodies when the chords are jumping so fast and thinking of each arpeggio, I envy you that you can do that.
The last part of the tune are simple 2-5-1, the problematic part is the first part of the tune but even in the first part some of the chords are connected via key center giving you "extra" phrase construction time.

[P4guitar]

Giant Steps can be improvised over using the key center approach, lets see which is simpler at constructing melodies:
5 positions of major scale * 3 key centers = 15
10 (chords) arpeggios * 5 positions (of 2 octaves) = 50

I don't understand how you can create melodies when the chords are jumping so fast and thinking of each arpeggio, I envy you that you can do that.
The last part of the tune are simple 2-5-1, the problematic part is the first part of the tune but even in the first part some of the chords are connected via key center giving you "extra" phrase construction time.

It seems you're conflating efficiency with melodic strength.

It would be simplest to use one augmented scale through the whole tune - I've tried it but it doesn't sound good

Failing that, then use three key centers. It sounds better but still lacks melodic strength and flexibility.

The problem with both the approaches above is that it's too hard to outline the underlying harmony, the chords, and that's what helps make great lines IMO.

As for practicality, it's just practice. There are many on this forum who play great. Some are natural born talents but most had to put in the practice time and develop systems that help them negotiate the changes. "Giant Steps" is doable by the masses if they start at very slow tempos and consistently practice.

This is just my opinion, but a good player should be able to play single lines unaccompanied by any other instrument and convey the chord changes to the listener. That's not to say doing that is the highest art form, but it is a desirable and acquirable skill.

I hope I'm not coming across as argumentative or dismissive of your approach. The most important thing is to have fun and do it in the way that works best for you now. If you read the earlier poster's comments, it seems they're saying this too.

Regards.

[oilywrag]

I dont think anybody mentioned the fact that Jimmy Bruno's method is key centered.Just my £0.02p worth.

regards tom

[merseybeat]

Yeah, I was thinking that! But you know I love this site because it keeps me out of my comfort zone! Its great seeing how other people think! Time to buy Dirk another beer! (He usually gets one a year from me lol)

Eddie

[jayx123]

It seems you're conflating efficiency with melodic strength.

I don't think outlining the harmony suggests melodic strength. what percentage of the notes in great solos are chord tones? 1-3-5-7

It would be simplest to use one augmented scale through the whole tune - I've tried it but it doesn't sound good

I have also tried it out and sounds bad but using key center does out line the changes (of the key centers) which I think is sufficient.

I hope I'm not coming across as argumentative or dismissive of your approach. The most important thing is to have fun and do it in the way that works best for you now. If you read the earlier poster's comments, it seems they're saying this too.

Regards.

4thstuning, You are not argumentative at all, the purpose of this post was to hear opinions about this approach and try to learn from one another.

I also think that what ever works for you...

I'm just saying that the arpeggio guide tone system was really hard for me and that the key center approach is much more easier to construct melodic phrases (at least for me), but hearing other player opinions on this is important it's always good to hear other opinions and learn something new.

[jayx123]

This is me improvising on a well known standard using the key center approach, can you tell which standard this is?

The changes (of the key centered are outlined)
XX.mp3 - File Shared from Box.net - Free Online File Storage

[Dad3353]

...can you tell which standard this is?...

Far too easy! Anyone could hear 'Catfish Strut' a mile off. Pretty good, though. Could use a bit more stompin', perhaps (and there's a whole minute where you've edited out the 'Yeehahs'. Shame, that's what makes it strut...). Nice try...

[P4guitar]

This is me improvising on a well known standard using the key center approach, can you tell which standard this is?

The changes (of the key centered are outlined)
XX.mp3 - File Shared from Box.net - Free Online File Storage

Your playing sounded nice and had it's own logic and groove but my small brain and bad ears couldn't figure out what tune you were playing.

Only later when I realized that there was actually music in the 2nd half of the file and turned my volume way up was I able to hear the background changes to "How High the Moon", at least that's what I think it was - it's hard to hear on my system.

[docbop]

Key Centers are the typical first approach taught to students because it easy to get going and let their ear be there police. It also give them time to think about upcoming key center changes and hopefully target the changing notes. Problem become they don't tend to outline the chords and hit avoid notes and don't understand why. Usually that when arpeggios start getting introduced. Arp's get them to focus on chord tones, and then combine with the key center scale to fill in with. Eventually moving on to CST, targeting and on and on.

My POV is all students should experience all the approaches over time. That having spent time with all the main approaches gives the person a large toolbox to use with improvising. It also helps building the ear up and the ear hand relationship.

[Reg]

No I didn't feel as though the harmonic rhythm was felt... sorry, I listened again, it was worse. There were obvious clues of a few changes, your phrasing was nice and some of your rhythmic ideas worked great, but with out forcing myself to hear the changes or more important the harmonic rhythm, it wasn't implied. But if you crank up the rhythm section... who cares...Reg

[jayx123]

ok guys 10x for your input and yes it "how high the moon", I thought you can really hear the key center changing, but if you say you couldn't hear them then maybe I should try giving the arpeggio guide tones method another shot. what I dont understand is do I need on every chord to ascent the 3 or 7, when do I imply the harmony? wouldn't it just sound like an arpeggio exercise? can any of you guys using this method post a sound file where i can hear how it should be properly done?

10x

[docbop]

ok guys 10x for your input and yes it "how high the moon", I thought you can really hear the key center changing, but if you say you couldn't hear them then maybe I should try giving the arpeggio guide tones method another shot. what I dont understand is do I need on every chord to ascent the 3 or 7, when do I imply the harmony? wouldn't it just sound like an arpeggio exercise? can any of you guys using this method post a sound file where i can hear how it should be properly done?

10x

Key center are fine, but target the note(s) that are changing when the key center changes. Usually can find some nice half-step change that signals new key.

[P4guitar]

Key center are fine, but target the note(s) that are changing when the key center changes. Usually can find some nice half-step change that signals new key.

@jayx123: Yes that will work but it seems hard to me. Develop the facility to outline the chords as they go by, this is independent of any scale concept. Whether or not you use that would be a matter of taste but it does guarantee you can address the changes or substitutes as needed.

You can do this by developing a library of 2, 3, and 4 note arpeggios for the chords. At first they should emphasize some combination of 1, 3 and 7. Later bring in the 5 and extension notes. String them together and you're outlining the changes. It won't necessarily be a great solo but it will be a strong technique that can be used to develop better solos.

The way I taught myself is not exactly what is described above. I worked out scales for each chord and strung them together for a tune. Eventually I figured out that emphasizing the chord tones within those scales made the music sound better. That's why I'm suggesting you go straight to the chord tones.

Again do what works for you.

[jayx123]

4thstuning thanks,
I have decide to give the arpeggio guide system a second chance and have already started working on it. my first try was not got but that was ages ago.

I will start with simple iim7 V7 IMaj7 and see how it goes

[merseybeat]

ok guys 10x for your input and yes it "how high the moon", I thought you can really hear the key center changing, but if you say you couldn't hear them then maybe I should try giving the arpeggio guide tones method another shot. what I don't understand is do I need on every chord to ascent the 3 or 7, when do I imply the harmony? wouldn't it just sound like an arpeggio exercise? can any of you guys using this method post a sound file where i can hear how it should be properly done?

10x

Why! Your original is very nice and I heard it! Thing is when you play with rythmn and feel like you do then chord tones are masked but relevent (i.e. without the backing its hard to place them unless you are playing straight 8's or 16's)! Also remember that so many jazz tunes share the same structure!

Love your sound too Jay! Whats the setup?

Respect man

Eddie

[merseybeat]

Key centers are great, and, as already mentioned at the heart of applying Jimmy Bruno's 5 shapes approach.

Totally agree but always know where your chord is! Thats JB's advice too!
In fact JB uses the term "picture" not keycenter! I think there is a lot more in the word "Picture"!

Eddie