The key center approach

[merseybeat]

Just a little something I found on the net attempting to explain the content of this thread! Its a real witty piece of writing!

What is the difference between melodic and harmonic? - Yahoo! Answers

Eddie

[jayx123]

4thstuning hi,

Do you have another standard, not giant steps recorded and are willing to share because I feel my criticism was not fair as "Giant Steps" is such a difficult tune to play melodic and you play really well.

what I'm trying to find out is, can the arpeggio/guide tone method sound melodic when its main focus is reflecting the harmony (harmonic).

[P4guitar]

4thstuning hi,

Do you have another standard, not giant steps recorded and are willing to share because I feel my criticism was not fair as "Giant Steps" is such a difficult tune to play melodic and you play really well.

what I'm trying to find out is, can the arpeggio/guide tone method sound melodic when its main focus is reflecting the harmony (harmonic).

I can attempt something else. Why don't you select the tune and I'll record over it.

I didn't feel that you criticized me at all and was fine with it. In fact I agreed with you for the most part. The point of that exercise was to attempt to demonstrate that the changes can be conveyed with single lines. How well that was done is another matter entirely. Actually thinking back on it, using GS was cheating. Its harmonic structure is too distinct. I should have used something that stayed in a key for a while to show how guide tones help.

As stated earlier, I view the chord scale/guide tone approach as a set of tools that should be in one's kit. I never said it led to great art (what you're calling melodic). Artists make great art, technicians sort of imitate (my category).

[jayx123]

I can attempt something else. Why don't you select the tune and I'll record over it.

I didn't feel that you criticized me at all and was fine with it. In fact I agreed with you for the most part. The point of that exercise was to attempt to demonstrate that the changes can be conveyed with single lines. How well that was done is another matter entirely. Actually thinking back on it, using GS was cheating. Its harmonic structure is too distinct. I should have used something that stayed in a key for a while to show how guide tones help.

As stated earlier, I view the chord scale/guide tone approach as a set of tools that should be in one's kit. I never said it led to great art (what you're calling melodic). Artists make great art, technicians sort of imitate (my category).

Hay man thanks for your effort!

I think a good tune for this is Blue Bossa because it has only 2 key centers and the progressions are pretty common.

[merseybeat]

4thstuning; You know all day I was wondering why I like your solo so much so I had a go at it and soon realised its those 'unaltered' ii V triads! Very Bensonish! Which has made me realise that sometimes we are so obsessed with 'getting outside' at every available V chord we forget how nice that Mixolydian sound can be!

I have just spent the last few hours rehashing the basic triads that got me into jazz in the first place!

There is a moral to the story here but I cant for the life of me remember!

Eddie

[max_power]

Not sure how many of you are familiar with Joey Goldstein (he's Canadian), but he wrote what's known in my area (Hamilton/Toronto) as "THE book" on Jazz guitar.

Here's his take on the subject:

"...in my experience, guitarists who start to learn [with the chord-scale approach] develop some serious blind spots that need to be addressed at sometime. Sometimes this can go on for years and years."

"The blind spot that I am speaking of is the relationship of those scales to the chord itself. It's one thing to know that a C major scale works well over a G7 chord but if you are totally unaware of where the notes that are members of the G7 chord happen to be found within the C major scale you will be missing the point. If you run up and down this scale thinking of it as a C major scale there is a real good chance that you will be emphasizing the note C quite a bit and C is one of the most unstable notes you can choose to emphasize on a G7 chord."

"[Another] reason for starting out with chord tones rather than chord-scales is that so many guitar players have such a hard time with them conceptually, whereas they are a very simple thing to see for most other instrumentalists. Bass players are always arpeggiating chords in their bass lines. Piano players can see the note positions for an arpeggio every time they play a chord voicing. It is only on the guitar where the fingering for an arpeggio is not made obvious from either a scale fingering or from a chord voicing's fingering."

/shedding some professional light on the subject

[jayx123]

"The blind spot that I am speaking of is the relationship of those scales to the chord itself. It's one thing to know that a C major scale works well over a G7 chord but if you are totally unaware of where the notes that are members of the G7 chord happen to be found within the C major scale you will be missing the point. If you run up and down this scale thinking of it as a C major scale there is a real good chance that you will be emphasizing the note C quite a bit and C is one of the most unstable notes you can choose to emphasize on a G7 chord."

I don't agree with that statement, if you think melodically, meaning that you can really sing what you are playing you will "avoid" that note without thinking of it, and if you do hit it "by accident" your melodic thinking can always resolve this note to a more stable note (although the dominant in most cases doesn't "ask" you to resolve your line as it itself not stable)

"[Another] reason for starting out with chord tones rather than chord-scales is that so many guitar players have such a hard time with them conceptually, whereas they are a very simple thing to see for most other instrumentalists. Bass players are always arpeggiating chords in their bass lines. Piano players can see the note positions for an arpeggio every time they play a chord voicing. It is only on the guitar where the fingering for an arpeggio is not made obvious from either a scale fingering or from a chord voicing's fingering."

I totally agree

[jayx123]

One thing about playing within a key center is I treat minor chords accordingly! i.e. ii licks may or may not work over a vi chord and vise versa. Again this is more a matter of taste than anything!

In minor tunes I still think in the major key center
but the melodic thinking will create minor phrases if this is what I hear from the harmony

This is me improvising on a minor blues called "Hassan's Dream"
using the key center approach (major)

please criticize if it sounds major or for any thing else
hassan.mp3 - File Shared from Box.net - Free Online File Storage

[merseybeat]

Thanks mate! Actually there is a modulation in that example! Exactly the same as "Blue Bossa" in fact lol (4 bars Bbmaj and 4 Bars EbMaj and back) then a Bebop blues progression (Bbmaj7 - Edim - Dm7 - G7b13 - C9 - F7alt Every chord outlined as such)............and then to a lot of Secondary Dominants on the main head!
Lol I love using this as an example because there is a lot more going on than appears!

I'll try and get something up in the next day or so!

Eddie

[P4guitar]

Nice job man!
The harmony is clearly made out and a lot more melodic then the Giant Steps, but still lacking true melodic feel, at least for my taste .

4thstuning when you improvise this way do you sing your lines while you are playing? or do you just have a vague feeling on how the lines will sound when thinking all the time on approaching chord tones especially the 3 and 7?

I have started with this approach on iim7-V7-IMaj7 in G and have now moved to try "Autumn Leaves".

Sometimes I sing my lines, but not on that one. I try to develop a melody that fits the chords coming up.

[P4guitar]

In minor tunes I still think in the major key center
but the melodic thinking will create minor phrases if this is what I hear from the harmony

This is me improvising on a minor blues called "Hassan's Dream"
using the key center approach (major)

please criticize if it sounds major or for any thing else
hassan.mp3 - File Shared from Box.net - Free Online File Storage

jayx123, I liked it and thought it was tasteful.

My only criticism is that it didn't hit some the of chord tones where MY taste buds wanted it. Specifically the diminished 3rd chord before the iv and the turnaround at the end of the chorus (bIII7, iib5, V). You did seem to cover the bVI7 chord though so why not the others?

My aesthetic sense prefers those chords be more strongly identified in a solo, and even in the head. This is purely subjective though because it really does boil down to taste.

[P4guitar]

Hi 4thstuning and thanks mate!

Both lol! I use the key center as my frame and make very subtle changes to accommodate the chords ! But I do try and treat V's with respect!

I try to treat Dim and Aug chords as 7alts. I also try and avoid big note jumps when modulating too! But hey this is just my one dull approach out of the 1000's in existence!
I'm learning everyday!

Respect

Eddie

You're a closet chord toner. March out of that closet and tell the world you're proud to be who you are!

[jayx123]

jayx123, I liked it and thought it was tasteful.

10x

You did seem to cover the bVI7 chord though so why not the others?

pure luck I guess as i didn't think about it
regarding the diminished chords you are correct I should have created some sort of a melodic phrase on the diminished scale to out line the color, the problem is that I think of diminished and augmented as just another dominant (a place to put tension in the key center) very basic approach (seems to be to basic - I need to work on that)

My aesthetic sense prefers those chords be more strongly identified in a solo, and even in the head. This is purely subjective though because it really does boil down to taste.

This is exactly why I have decided to give the arpeggio guide tone approach another try and try to blend it with the key center.

[P4guitar]

10x


regarding the diminished chords you are correct I should have created some sort of a melodic phrase on the diminished scale to out line the color, the problem is that I think of diminished and augmented as just another dominant (a place to put tension in the key center) very basic approach (seems to be to basic - I need to work on that)

That's what you should be doing but I don't think you are or I'm not understanding you. I think of that dim 3rd as a I7b9, the fifth of the iv. I would play mi, transition to I7b9, then to iv.

[jayx123]

That's what you should be doing but I don't think you are or I'm not understanding you. I think of that dim 3rd as a I7b9, the fifth of the iv. I would play mi, transition to I7b9, then to iv.

Wow this is too much information for me to think when improvising. for me the dominant hints tension, i can or not decide if to implement this tension it depends on what the melodic phrase I'm thinking of needs, in addition the meaning of tension for me is very basic even naive, it just says play what ever you want but note to resolve it to the key center, this can be playing some whole notes, sidestepping, chromatic movement, minor pentatonic etc.

[P4guitar]

Wow this is too much information for me to think when improvising. for me the dominant hints tension, i can or not decide if to implement this tension it depends on what the melodic phrase I'm thinking of needs, in addition the meaning of tension for me is very basic even naive, it just says play what ever you want but note to resolve it to the key center, this can be playing some whole notes, sidestepping, chromatic movement, minor pentatonic etc.

Another way of expressing what I said earlier is instead of playing over Bbm7|Ddim|Ebm7 and ignoring the Ddim, you play over these chords:
Bbm7|Bb7|Ebm7 and emphasize a B note over the Bb7

This would give acknowledgment to that Ddim chord in the progression.

[Reg]

Added vid to see if I could... no chart,backing etc... just playing through changes of top of my head, so I could download... I'll post some good stuff now that I almost know what I'm doing... Best Reg

[JohnRoss]

Added vid to see if I could... no chart,backing etc... just playing through changes of top of my head, so I could download... I'll post some good stuff now that I almost know what I'm doing... Best Reg

Sounds good. You playing with a coin instead of a pick?

[P4guitar]

Added vid to see if I could... no chart,backing etc... just playing through changes of top of my head, so I could download... I'll post some good stuff now that I almost know what I'm doing... Best Reg

Reg, that's really hot playing! I like your mix of blues, pentatonics, and arpeggios. Sounds great. Would really like to hear you over a backing track too.

[merseybeat]

Me too!

Nice work Reg! Great phrasing!

Eddie

[Reg]

Thanks tons... I wasted way too much time trying to get my act together with my little camcorder... But at least now I can BS... and then play examples...of BS... Best Reg.

[merseybeat]

Reg! your playing is tight! Nice accurate sweeps too! I could listen to that type of BS all day!

Eddie

[jayx123]

Added vid to see if I could... no chart,backing etc... just playing through changes of top of my head, so I could download... I'll post some good stuff now that I almost know what I'm doing... Best Reg

Wow Reg, that's hot!, I would love to hear you play with a backing so I can hear the relation to the harmony.

[West LA Jazz]

John Albercrombie interview - a interesting talking point win light of this topic.

He says "back then applying scales to cords was a new thing"... "the teachers were figuring it out themselves".