3 fingered jazz guitar players "think" differently?

[princeplanet]

Noticing many great bop inspired players like to favor 3 fingers and use the pinky sparingly. I can see how this is a benefit, for one thing you are using stronger fingers and things like enclosures are easier to spot. On the downside of course you probably have to shift positions more often and rely on sliding a lot more (not necessarily a bad thing for everyone!).
So, being a 4 fingered player due to early classical training, does that mean I'll never "see" the guitar, or even think and hear ideas the same way that, say, Wes did?
What do you folks think of the benefits vs disadvantages of favoring 3 fingers?

[thebluntman]

i would put them at a 25% disadvantage

[princeplanet]

[Kochavi]

Yeah, I don't really think there's a benefit to it, learning to use your pinky is as important as any other finger, and opens more options, i thinka

[bako]

If you play with 4 fingers you can play with 3 or 2 or 1 finger(s) anytime you believe it will best support feel of the phrase.
If you never develop the skill to play with 4 fingers then that is a disadvantage.

As a guitarist I would not complain if I had 6 fingers to use, one for each string. As a person in a society that might be a little strange.

[gordon]

not if you live near three mile island
sorry, bad joke

[monk]

Django, Christian & Wes got the job done. No one can argue that point. Given the technical level at which they expressed themselves, to consider them disadvantaged is ridiculous in the extreme.

To argue that Django is only playing at 50% or CC & Wes at 75% because of the number of fingers they use is sheer sophistry. Most of us on this forum or any other will never play at that level regardless of the number of fingers we use.

Yes, Django had two disabled fingers but he wasn't disadvantaged. All you have to do is watch the J'Attendrai film clip to see how effortlessly he played.

There have been posts in which people have asserted that CC & Wes played with three fingers because they were lacking in education or information. I will submit that both men consciously arrived
at the way they played because it was the best way to phrase on the instrument what they were hearing in their heads. It wasn't an accident nor was it luck.

Django viewed the fingerboard in a slightly different way from CC & Wes who had a similar view of the fingerboard. So someone who approaches the fingerboard with four fingers will play and phrase differently.

Clark Terry once said "It's alright to be a copycat; as long as you copy the right cat." For me, Django, CC and Wes are the right cats.

Regards,
monk

[musicalbodger]

not if you live near three mile island
sorry, bad joke

Yes, but funny

[princeplanet]

Django, Christian & Wes got the job done. No one can argue that point. Given the technical level at which they expressed themselves, to consider them disadvantaged is ridiculous in the extreme.

To argue that Django is only playing at 50% or CC & Wes at 75% because of the number of fingers they use is sheer sophistry. Most of us on this forum or any other will never play at that level regardless of the number of fingers we use.

Yes, Django had two disabled fingers but he wasn't disadvantaged. All you have to do is watch the J'Attendrai film clip to see how effortlessly he played.

There have been posts in which people have asserted that CC & Wes played with three fingers because they were lacking in education or information. I will submit that both men consciously arrived
at the way they played because it was the best way to phrase on the instrument what they were hearing in their heads. It wasn't an accident nor was it luck.

Django viewed the fingerboard in a slightly different way from CC & Wes who had a similar view of the fingerboard. So someone who approaches the fingerboard with four fingers will play and phrase differently.

Clark Terry once said "It's alright to be a copycat; as long as you copy the right cat." For me, Django, CC and Wes are the right cats.

Regards,
monk

Have you consciously sought to adopt the 3 fingered style to help copy these cats? Do you think it's harder to play in their style trying to utilize all 4 fingers in the "rational" way that some of us were trained to do?

[monk]

Yes, I spent a considerable amount of time working on Reinhardt fingerings and then CC/Wes fingerings. My motivation was having learned some Django & Wes solos and hearing that they didn't sound right with four fingers even though the notes were correct. When I started fingering the way they did things started to sound right & got much easier. I didn't have to work as hard.

As for the 2nd question, yes, you'll encounter some obstacles with phrasing or having a note not ring because you played it with a weak finger or things feeling awkward. Understand that a lot of how they sound is "built-in" to the way they play.

Regardless of how "rational" playing with four fingers may be, it may not be rational to play that way all the time.

Regards,
monk

[princeplanet]

Yes, I spent a considerable amount of time working on Reinhardt fingerings and then CC/Wes fingerings. My motivation was having learned some Django & Wes solos and hearing that they didn't sound right even though the notes were correct. When I started fingering the way they did things started to sound right & got much easier. I didn't have to work as hard.

As for the 2nd question, yes, you'll encounter some obstacles with phrasing or having a note not ring because you played it with a weak finger or things feeling awkward. Understand that a lot of how they sound is "built-in" to the way they play.

Regardless of how "rational" playing with four fingers may be, it may not be rational to play that way all the time.

Regards,
monk

I was afraid you'd say that as I've been suspecting that transcribing Wes or Django may be futile unless you can phrase they way they did. I find some phrases are harder to make sound musical than many horn lines! Even Jimmy Rainey on that other thread, if I was transcribing that without knowing how he was shifting, it would sound nothing like him. Same goes for Benson, and, well, probably all my other fave guitar players. Maybe I should just stick to listening to the horn guys....

[cutnstuf]

I play classical so I have to disagree with the 75% efficiency idea. It's just another style of playing. How it equates to playing jazz is of course a different issue I suppose. I'm not as well versed in jazz style as I am in classical, so I defer to the more experienced.

[monk]

And who do you think Wes, CC, Raney, Benson, Grant Green et al. listened to?

Horn players.

As guitarists influenced by horn players the way they played was a result of trying to find the best way to phrase like a horn. They used their ears and brains.

Here are the choices:
1. Do it their way
2. Do it your way

Rhetorical question:
Your classical guitar teacher tells you using 4 LH fingers is the "best way" to play. Your teacher tells you this because his teacher told him this and his teacher told him this and the books they use say this.

You see a video of Wes playing jazz, smiling, grooving, creating beautiful melodies with predominantly 3 fingers. He does what he does because he knows it works.

Who is correct?

Regards,
monk

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Rhetorical question:
Your classical guitar teacher tells you using 4 LH fingers is the "best way" to play. Your teacher tells you this because his teacher told him this and his teacher told him this and the books they use say this.

You see a video of Wes playing jazz, smiling, grooving, creating beautiful melodies with predominantly 3 fingers. He does what he does because he knows it works.

Who is correct?

A NEW monastery was to be opened, and the master Hyakujo had to
decide which of his monks should be put in charge. So he called
the monks together, filled a vase with water, and said to them:
"Which one of you can say what this is without giving its name?"
The chief monk, who expected to be given the new mastership, spoke
first. "It stands upright, it is hollow inside, but it is not a
wooden shoe," he said.
Another monk said, "It is not a pond, because it can be carried."
Then the cook, lowest of the monks, arose. He kicked over the vase
with his foot, so the water ran out on to the floor. He had shown
how to achieve emptiness.
Hyakujo gave him the job.

[princeplanet]

And who do you think Wes, CC, Raney, Benson, Grant Green et al. listened to?

Horn players.

As guitarists influenced by horn players the way they played was a result of trying to find the best way to phrase like a horn. They used their ears and brains.

Here are the choices:
1. Do it their way
2. Do it your way

Rhetorical question:
Your classical guitar teacher tells you using 4 LH fingers is the "best way" to play. Your teacher tells you this because his teacher told him this and his teacher told him this and the books they use say this.

You see a video of Wes playing jazz, smiling, grooving, creating beautiful melodies with predominantly 3 fingers. He does what he does because he knows it works.

Who is correct?

Regards,
monk

While I can't see myself re-inventing my technique just yet, I will start considering that a 3 fingered way to phrase occasionally when it sounds and feels better is the way to go, despite seeming unorthodox. Maybe gradually I'll replace many of my 4 fingered habits with 3. I'm already finding that sequenced enclosures feel much better moving the 3 fingers along the neck as opposed to using 4 fingers in one position. Wish someone had told me this a few years ago!

[Shadow of the Sun]

Referring to the 'three finger debate', I personally find arpeggios on the top four strings to be much easier to play with two fingers rather than three, which I was experimenting with because, well, don't we all love Django?

If it works, it works. If not, find something that does.

[cutnstuf]

and the moral of the story is, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it"...