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Just my point of view, but a part of bebop is dancing around and hitting the chord tones on the down beats. You need to dance and sing it first, then play it.
Dick can dance, listen here:
YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.
Have fun
Funchal
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10-04-2008 06:01 AM
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Funchal!
Thanks ever so much for posting that playlist!
I've seen jazzerman on youtube before, but this list is a goldmine, and MAN, he's got feeling in abundance!!!
Just friends is such a masterpiece, the tune is pure magic, and this player does a stupendously marvelous version, He sure knows how to dance!
Peace
&
Thanks again for the list
Skei (the 'Will learn to bebop my guitar' one)
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Zhivago,
(Pardon the 'underline.' I can't get it to go away)
Learn a BeBop solo that you respect....that you like. Pick the solo that has the sound that you like----learn it, then play it till you puke. Really.
Unsure about your choice of who to learn? You will never-ever go wrong with Wes Montgomery.
I suggest learn one solo in ballad form. (Wes playing "Misty" has honesty-call and response-taste-balance-and most of the devices of BeBop)
Learn one solo of the up-tempo type. Include the 'heads' to these tunes.
Your ear will not lie to you. Play the stuff that made you fall in love with the stuff in the first place----then your brain will take it apart-name it-analyze it- at a later time.
This is one approach that I trust.
I'm new here and I hope my first post is a helpful one.
2/5/1 2/5/1 2/5/1 2/5/1
Breezy
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Thanks for the agreement. It always feels good when another player has stuff in common.
It's seems on other threads, and maybe this one too (I'm new here) that there are as many methods as there are players.
The one I posted is the one I learned and studied...mainly because, where I lived, There were no lessons available.
Now that I'm much older and have met many pickers, I'm still proud of the way I learned. It may not be the only way, but it's a good way.
It sticks with you and you have melodic moorings.
Thanks for your post.
Breezy
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That's excellent advice, Wes Montgomery's solos too.
Originally Posted by ingeneri
Last edited by John Curran; 10-29-2008 at 07:52 PM.
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Well, after 8 months of listening, transcribing, studying and trying to play bebop, I've managed to get a bebop sound... kinda hehe. Well, I got the most common chopps, my timing and swing has improved significantly. I'm really happy, I could get the kind of sound I was trying to get. Still, there's a huge way to go, and probably bebop is the 1st step.
Now, you will laugh, but... my fingers just go bebop now
!!!! I don't know if I'm being clear, but when I play blues, or standard, I'm just thinking on a bebop sound, and playing that also. But I don't want that !!!! Cool, I can play something like bebop, but I don't want to be a bebop slave !!!!
So the thing is, how would you guys proceed in trying to kinda leave something you've been studying a lot? Not that I'm great at it, but it reached this point, and I think I should be going other ways, before going back of course. I don't want to sound just like another bebop guitar. I would love to go on a more triadic sound like Kurt, ambichord thing, Ben Monder, Scofield.
Btw m78w, do you have a Kurt voicings pdf, Ben Monder? Scofield? I would love that. And oh, if you're interested, I have the A Minor score (also known as Ouro Preto), written by Kurt himself hehehe...
Thanks everyone!
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I would say that if you want to start to get a more modern sound to go along with your bebop sound start to check out the techniques these modern players used.
Try taking any solo by Kurt, Ben or Sco and pick out their characteristic lines and motives etc and see how they're built. You'll start to see familar choices like pentatonics and triad pairs etc, that you can practice that will help expand your vocab beyond the bebop/chromatic approach.
As far as chords, Kurt uses a ton of fourth voicings, triads (both diatonic and chromatic) and thirds and sevenths with color tones on top.
Ben uses all of those, plus all of the conventional chords like Drop 2, Drop3, Drop 2 and 3, Drop 2 and 4 and closed voicings. But one thing that Ben does that gives him that unique sound is he builds his own voicings. Try picking a key, say C major, then drop your hand on three to four random notes in the key, say:
5xx457
Then move this shape up and down the scale keeping the same interval relationship between the notes.
5xx457
7xx568
8xx7810
etc
Ben does this a lot and it's not really the grips that are important, but the mental ability to create your own voicings and then voice lead them through the scale you're on, and once you've got this under your fingers, between keys as any tune dictates.
MW
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I've transcribed some Kurt, View from Moscow. I've seen he has quite a lots of triads, and a lots of pentatonics. His lines seem so simple, yet, they are so amazing. He also uses a lot of patterns ...
Thanks for answering! I'll check those ideas out...
Btw, do you have any practical knowledge on ambichords? a 2nd, 4th, 4th, our 4th 2nd 4th, 4th 4th 2nd...
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I've never heard the term ambichord, but I think I see what you're saying. Those are cool chords, I use them all the time, especially the first one.
Like A Bb D G, 2nd 4th 4th, I would use as a:
Bbmaj7
Gm7
C7
Ebmaj7
MW
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Wow, that's a hard voicing hehehe...
Yeah, I got some from Kurt, like A, D, E and A, using on a Bb bass...
I think the name ambichord it's because it has a very ambiguous sound. Comes from quartal I spose. I will put some info about it as soon as I get it (like 8 pages).
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Andy Summers makes good use of ambiguous chords, and is largely responsible for bringing them into rock/pop music. In the 2 disc hot licks vid set, he lays out a fairly sizable number of these shapes and voices, and I have begun incorporating them in my playing.
The other thing that is common between the players mentioned above (KR, JS, BF) is their use of unconventional tones along with unconventional improv devices.
Jazz sounds really different to my ears when played on a 335 with roundwound strings and a Vox AC30 dimed so as to break up nicely, as opposed to on an L5 with flats, tone rolled back and played thru a polytone or such.
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Hey All,
Everyone on here seems to have a really deep understanding of theory. But my question is, does knowing all of this stuff actually make one a better player? In my view, maybe, maybe not.
The odd and complicating thing about musical concepts is that they can be described many different ways, just like 4+1, 2+3, 8-3, etc. all equal 5. What about a Emi7b5 arpeggio over a C7 chord? Why does it work? It works because Emi7b5 contains all the notes of a C9 chord except the root. But is there any point in approaching it this way, instead of just targeting the notes of C7? Do I really need to be thinking of fifty ways to play over a few measures of a chord when true melodicism results from the appropriate placement of chord tones and guide tones? You can play scales up and down, but if you don't hear and play the 3rd and b7th of a dominant chord, the improvisation will be weak. It's really quite simple, but oh so hard to pull off convincingly.
Why would you think of a Cmi7 chord in terms of the relative major Eb instead of just targeting the notes in Cmi7? To do this tastefully is for me, at least, challenging enough. Too much confusion results from all of these enharmonic subs. Good rule of thumb: Always play from the tonic of the chord.
The great players certainly know their stuff, no question, and more colors are always a welcome addition to the player's tool box. But the great players also know how to keep it simple and concise and lyrical. They see the forest for the trees, pardon the cliche. They know what's necessary and what's not. Jazz has become far too academic. Miles learned, he said, by "figuring out what notes worked" just by playing. It points to experimentation, listening, and playing by intuition and feeling. Of course practicing is beneficial- everyone needs to know the basics and I spent years studying theory- but too much can frustrate creative expression. It’s about balance. Ron Carter said simply, don't practice too much. Keith Jarrett plays piano once a week so as to not get stale. It comes down to taste and style, in the end, and I’m not sure this is achieved by musical calculus. The great players weren't academics; they were poets. And poetry should always be the ideal.
"Simplicity is the ultimate form of sophistication" - DiVinci
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do you have any suggestions on how to develop this mental ability? its something ive thought about but im not sure the best way to be able to visualize the scale on that many different strings and move a chord up through it. Originally Posted by m78w
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I would start by just dropping your fingers on two strings, adjacent or seperated, then move up and down the scale two notes at a time. Once you can do two notes in a bunch of different combinations in a few keys, one at a time, try it through a tune.
One thing Fred Hersch had me do was play only half notes through a tune with this concept, slowly with a metronome. When you can do this with two notes, try three or four. The key is to go slow to train your mental muscles as well as your fingers and ears.
MW
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That's a great approach... on my "to do" list... that way we could start comping more like a piano, and more freely...
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True but, we need theoretical concepts to express these ideas between one another in forums (and rehearsals) like this. Having a handle on theoretical concepts has always helped me in musical situations, it helps me to be a quick study. Originally Posted by ShiffronLandren
No, you just need to find the way of thinking that works for you. Originally Posted by ShiffronLandren
Boring! That might be a good place to start, but doing that all the time will make your playing sound predictable and boring. I come from a bass players background where grabbing the root of the chord on one becomes second nature when walking or comping. It took me quite a bit of work not to do that when soloing. FWIW. Originally Posted by ShiffronLandren
johnLast edited by John Curran; 11-21-2008 at 08:34 PM.
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John your short answer is: yes it can hurt and yes it really will help.
Always keep your heart in the sound.
Always keep technique viewed as a way to facilitate THE sound.
(The sound is what you fell in love with to begin with.)
If you want a longer answer i will be glad....and many others too I imagine breezy
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?????? Originally Posted by Breezy
I didn't realize I had asked a question.
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Well said, Shandrom. Music theory is called "theory" because it's just an attempt to explain something that is unexplainable and perceived by everyone in a different way. You've got to know your stuff, and one should always practice thinking about the theory behind it--really stressing your brain and thinking about every scale over ever chord that you're blowing over. But one must also practice with the lights out and their eyes closed, literally or figuratively (I do it literally) and just go by spontaneous inspiration alone. Let your mind guide your fingers and just go for it. Then, hopefully, the two results will come together when you perform.
Smitty
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Sorry John. I'm new here and I must not be using the buttons correctly. Originally Posted by John Curran
No offense.
Breezy
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None taken. Originally Posted by Breezy
john
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chord tones on the down beat of jazz quavers
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This is unbelievable! Thanks so much Matt! I have been playing full 3 octave scales for over 20 years and have wondered why I am limited on fast chord changes? Single Octave! This is such a common sense approach, I just wonder why I have never seen it before? You tend to be shaped by the books you use early on! I have never seen this finger labeling system either and I have to say its superb and so easy to remember! A light switch went on reading this thread and all of a sudden I'm a lot more free on the neck!
Absolutely brilliant! Thanks for sharing!
EddieLast edited by merseybeat; 12-21-2008 at 02:33 AM.
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Sorry me again! Matt I seriously owe you a beer! Those PDF's have done more for me in 4 hours than in 20 years of playing! For anyone else take your time on them for example the Locrian/Ionian 124,124,13 (Over a Maj7 chord for this example) I now see the Maj7 and Maj9 arpeggios in each pattern. On top of that you can easily add chromatics i.e. 124,124,123 and even 124,1234,13 (try alternating them.) . Try sliding into the pattern from outside (a semitone say) and before you know it you will be using the entire chromatic scale whilst maintaining a good melodic base! I have done this for all Matt's examples and its paying huge dividends! Finally make them swing by starting where you wish especially with the chromatics!
The funny thing is its some stuff I have been playing for years but these bite sized chunks make it much more clear for me!
Again Matt thanks so much!
EddieLast edited by merseybeat; 12-21-2008 at 11:45 AM.
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Matt, Originally Posted by m78w
This forum is amazing...thanks so much for the information!
Can you explian
1. Arp up - does it mean 1-3-5-7 --> or 7-5-3-1 -->
2. Can you give explianation to 3-9 formula, what is min7 of the 3rd?
Ronen
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