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I suppose this is an addendum to the "Synchronisation" thread, although I think it involves separate issues...
For simplicity, let's just say a fast line is up around 8ths at 250BPM, and that is contains elements typical of bop language, so slurs, slides, mini sweeps (either direction), economy and alternate picking etc. So, to get your lines to speed, you develop a technique to enable that which may have involved practicing at a slower tempo at some point, but once they're up to speed we put in many hours perfecting them at speed. Now the issue I brought up in the other thread pertained to noticing inconsistent synchronisation of the left and right hands outside the comfort zone, as in, articulation suffered not only as I attempt faster tempi, but also at slower ones.
When I record myself at half speed, not only am I generally rushing, but things like the slurs and sweeps are often rushed as well. It's quite surprising how "lumpy" my time is at slow tempos with these kinds of lines! I know that we usually don't play these s-l-o-w-l-y, but I'm wondering if it's worth persisting practicing at these painfully slow tempi to improve overall technique? The challenge is to maintain the exact way you pick/slur/sweep these lines at speed when doing them at half tempo. I find it incredibly challenging with slurs and sweeps in particular. My wife overheard me practicing like this yesterday and she thought I'd had a stroke!
Any value in doing this? Or a waste of time?
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03-27-2024 03:22 AM
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If you find a weakness, notice something that you thought would be easier, I think it is in general a good idea to explore it and see what you can learn, see where it will get you.
You can practise trying to copy the picking/slurs/etc just for the sake of the exploration, you can then continue the exploration and change it up and see if you can find other ways of picking/slurs/etc. that you think sound more musical at the slower tempo.
You can also focus on the rushing part. Does your timing improve if you simplify the slurs etc.?
Depends on how you value your time and just things in life in general. You could argue that learning to play guitar is just a waste of time (please don't take the thread in that direction).Any value in doing this? Or a waste of time?
My general experience is that there usually is "value" in slower practise that I didn't expect.
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To improve the timing of my slurring (non-picked notes), I practice playing slowing with my fretting hand only, no picking.
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It's ironic... I have always heard, my entire playing life, "if you can't play it slow, you won't be able to play it fast". Yet I have seen countless pros who try to demonstrate some of their licks/techniques, and they can't play it slow. Fast, they are flawless. But the literally can't play it slow.
I have observed the same thing in my playing- just in certain licks here and there, it's not a "rule" or anything- over the years. At the gig, a fast run is needed, and I nail it. But sitting at home practicing it slow I don't have the technique to do it cleanly. Always found that interesting.
And no- I don't just THINK I'm doing it well live, we record some of our shows, and I nail these things on play back. Something to be said for excitement, adrenalin, being in the flow, whatever... sometimes you can actually reach higher than your skill level should allow. It's a cool feeling.
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Interesting idea, so does that help when you eventually add the picking hand?
Originally Posted by GuyBoden
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Well, I'm glad others find the same problem! Presumably most have us may have things in common that are the cause. let's face it, slurs (hammers and pulloffs) are probably easier when faster because we need enough force to execute them (to sound a clear note). Sweeps and mini sweeps I (we?) find easier if faster because of the naturally occurring momentum when we plough through a set of strings. I think we use different muscle groups when we play in slow motion. Originally Posted by ruger9
Has anyone found that purposefully practicing in slo-mo creates flow on improvements to your normal technique?
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Originally Posted by GuyBoden
Originally Posted by princeplanet
Yes, it helps, because with practice you've hopefully improved your fretting hand timing.
Turn your guitar volume up and practice playing with your fretting hand only, no picking.
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I think it's important to work out stuff at different tempos. And also this in general:
Working stuff at different tempos helps your time feel. It's something I've been working on. It's not only the rhythms, it's the grouping of rhythms like a wave, and that has to be pleasing. You can execute the rhythmic values of the notes correctly and still have the passage feel bad time feel wise. So yes, I isolate stuff I play fast and try to play it slow and have it sound good. Originally Posted by orri
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I think there's a ton of value in practicing slow. I know people like Troy Grady have popularized starting fast to play fast, which is good advice, but only to address a specific problem that is overcoming speed limits. Building coordination IMO still has to be done gradually and at slower tempos. You have to program in the feeling of good coordination. At the same time, it's important to test and push it at higher tempos and get your body to replicate that feeling of coordination. My technical practice is a set of exercises at 3 tempos about 20 bpm apart to first get coordination going and then push the upper limit.
Really it's important to practice a wide range of tempos; nothing will prepare you for the feeling of playing at a tempo other than...playing at that tempo.
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I do that sometimes as well Originally Posted by GuyBoden
I don’t even slur though. I just finger the notes.
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See also ‘slow improv’ (Tristano school thing - improvise at 60-80 bpm in 8th notes only.)
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Joe Pass says Yes! - to learning/playing things slowly and then getting them up to speed - heard this directly from him at a workshop I attended (one of the few things I remember from it, wish I'd saved my notes). But this seems like common sense to me.
"improvise at 60-80 bpm in 8th notes only."
Heard that from Joe too, thank you Christian.
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Yep Originally Posted by BreckerFan
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And then there is this thing ... subdividing. 8ths at 250 is only med fast. How is your swing feel... Triplets, at that tempo.
Personally I usually use octaves at slow tempos, or tremolo picking... and I'm always subdividing in my head or the feel of what I'm playing.
I also think practicing slow generally creates different technique...
Back in the 60's and even into 70's using different guitars, amps etc....different licks and technique... maybe.
(and I'm just a simple players)
Sorry... didn't answer.... Yes, but would usually change the feel... with subdividing to adjust to feel of slower tempo.
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Out of curiosity … why is this? Originally Posted by Reg
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Couple of reasons.... on my jazz box.... single notes just don't sustain that long. They fade and somewhat loose the feel, both harmonically and rhythmically of what I'm trying to play. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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I never thought about that, certainly a benefit playing jazz on solidbodies. I couldn't imagine playing without sustain, unless I was doing a strictly Charlie Christian/T-Bone Walker thing. Originally Posted by Reg
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Practice tips from California-based Dobro & pedal steel guitar master Pete Grant. Pete address the slow-to-fast notion at the end .......
o Sing whatever you play.
o Sing something -- a short line -- then play it. Do that a lot.
o If you practice scales, then do them so they are interesting for you to listen to, including making up little phrases from a short part of the scale, like 4 or 5 notes.
o Listen to how other instruments phrase, like saxophone, and especially voice. Take a George Jones CD and play note-for-note and bend-for-bend with George. Aretha Franklin is also an excellent choice.
o Take something you play well and change the dynamics of it. Accent parts you wouldn't ordinarily accent. Exaggerate the dynamics so that you're REALLY LOUD and really soft. Do smooth changes in volume; also, do sudden changes in volume. Play around with it. A sudden drop in volume can really grab the listener.
o Use other contrasts in your soloing. Play something high, drop down an octave or so and more softly play an answer to what you just played. Maybe make one phrase with a usual amount of notes, then your answer phrase could be fewer than half the notes of the first.
o Accuracy first. Take something you're trying to bring up to speed (or just get faster) and find the most comfortable tempo where you can play everything in that piece well. If there's a stumbling block, work it out; fix it. Then fan out the tempo: play it a little faster, then a little slower; then play it faster yet and slower yet. Continue that until your slow is very slow. The slow gives you the precision. It also gives you the opportunity to play LOUD with your fingers. This gives you a greater dynamic range. You need that. If you can pick loud, you can always pick softer. If you always pick soft, well...you can pick soft or softer. The technique really works, and it works faster that continually pushing your speed.
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Although this post is mostly off topic, I do agree that playing things LOUD in an exaggerated way is a great way to gain dynamic facility, particularly with your picking hand. I'm still in 2 minds as to whether practicing lines you can comfortably play fast, slower. This has nothing to do with practicing things slowly BEFORE you can play them faster, which of course everybody does (except Reg maybe?)... Originally Posted by AndyV
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There's not a universal answer to this. I was discussing technique with Tim Miller once (the legato guy). We were talking about the 2-1-2-1 style approach to legato. He told me that on fast tempos, he uses pick and fingers ascending and economy picking descending.
He told me that he varies the technique depending on the tempo. On slow tempos he alternate picks or uses economy.
The truth is that on guitar, you have to vary the left and right hand depending on a number of factors including tempo, style, desired phrasing, etc.
If I'm playing rock or fusion or want a more sheets-of-sound-ish sounding phrase, I'll often use legato and pick and fingers. At slower tempos or if i'm playing a swing tune, I'll use the pick and either alternate or economy picking because it has a more positive groove.
This is why we have to practice tunes at all tempos. I once went through a period of a couple months, where all my practicing was over fast tunes at 300bpm and after 2 months, my picking was much improved, but overall my phrasing and groove suffered. And the reason was that I was missing some of the subtleties of phrasing that come into your playing when you practice slowly and with intent.
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Come to think of it Jack, I think I remember seeing a video of you where someone asked you to play an example slowly, and you couldn't! I guess that happens to the best of us if we overdo practice at 300 BPM! Originally Posted by jzucker
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it's quite common on our instrument because unless you're dan wilson or cecil alexander, you have to adjust your technique for faster tempos. Things like economy picking are often harder at slower tempos so if you're practicing things at the faster tempos, it might actually be easier. Then, at the slower tempos you have to adjust your left and right hand fingerings to make it groove. Originally Posted by princeplanet
Come to think of it Jack, I think I remember seeing a video of you where someone asked you to play an example slowly, and you couldn't! I guess that happens to the best of us if we overdo practice at 300 BPM!
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i think it's really important to practice improvisation at multiple tempos. Ballads, down-home, med swing, medium up, fast swing.
Only then will your lines solidify at slow tempos.
Another thing to remember is that actual styles will/should change depending on the way the groove is going. It's not just a matter of whether your lines are solid.
Like playing over something like this which is a more down-home groove as opposed to the way miles davis with herbie, ron and jack would have played it.
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Been thinking more about it all, and I now can distill the question thusly:
When you arrive at a way to utilise Economy picking for fast-ish bop lines (8ths at 250+BPM), is it helpful to practice the same economy picking and a slower speed (say half)?
Of course, if wanting to sound good at playing the same lines at a slower tempo you could and perhaps should change the way you pick the notes.... but here the question pertains to whether or not there is any benefit to be had in practicing economy picking and slurring slowly.
In the absence of any definitive or unanimous response from the members bothering to reply, I resolved to test this for myself as it may be one of those things that depend on the individual. Again, I'm able to play certain etudes that require all the usual challenges for bona fide Bop lines (string skips, economy mini sweeps, slurs, slides, alt picking etc) comfortably at say 250BPM, but was having difficulty at 125 in keeping things very even regarding timing as well as dynamics. Well, I'm happy to report that after a week of forcing this slow practice, there has indeed been an improvement in not only playing more evenly at half tempo, but this improvement in control and articulation seems to have been brought into the faster tempo as well. In particular, the muscular control for the mini sweeps in either direction has definitely improved.
The question for myself remains - Is this the best way to see improvement? I mean, the alternative is to just put more hours into practicing at the faster tempo being mindful to improve left and right hand synchronisation. If the aim is to be clean at speed, then perhaps practice as much as possible at speed?
But the aim for me is also to feel control, and the bonus with a lot of slow-mo practice is that I can sound more controlled at slower tempos and also feel more controlled at faster ones, even if I don't sound that different at 250. Does that make sense?
I'll try to report back (in case anyone's vaguely interested) later with more impressions of what's going on with this, but what I can say is that after a week of it, I'm feeling strain on many parts of my right hand wrist, arm, elbow and peculiarly, my shoulder blade! It's uncomfortable and frustrating work so it wouldn't surprise me if most players refuse to make a habit of this kind of practice!
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Hey prince...
Sounds like you getting great info about what works for you. Cool.
So feel of fast lines etc... is either straight or swing. And generally jazz players will even use swing feel or triplets and subdivision within straight fast lines and of course...straight within swing.
Practicing a fast line slow is like memorizing the line. And the subdividing of the attacks obviously needs to become more defined. Think of trying to notate the line... to be played by a different player.
Personally... articulations at slower tempos are different than at fast tempos. By that I mean... the targets or notes that are the most important of melodic lines ... changes at different tempos.
If your really just trying to clean up technique...that's a different thing from performance... yea?
As I've always said.... they are different things. Technical Skills and Performance Skills. Different goals and results... as well as approach.
Please checkin on progress... great subject.
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