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I used to run the major scale in 5 positions through all 12 keys in different patterns. I got tired of it and moved onto heads thinking I would run those around the circle of 4ths, but it’s fallen off my routine.
How many of us here go through something in 12 keys every day? And what’s your system?
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02-25-2024 06:08 PM
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In fall of 21 I went on my every key program. I play in 1 major key and its parallel minor for several days. I do all my material in that key including tunes and exercises. Then I move on to the next key a half step up and repeat. It's been the best big, long term regimen I've ever done. I'm now fluent in every key, even the hard ones like B and Gb. I noticed that I wouldn't make much progress just doing a little every key work here and there, you need to spend time in the hard keys. I also notice improved general fluency even in tunes in the easy keys.
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I try to do most stuff in twelve keys … scales, bebop heads, chord patterns, licks I like, etc.
Originally Posted by AllanAllen
I don’t make myself do any of it in a day though. I keep a note on my desk where I just write down the key I finished on for each thing so I know where to pick up the next day.
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I will sometimes drill an arp, first by playing it in multiple positions in one key and then by moving it through the cycle for 12 keys. Until I get bored, which is usually before I've done 12 keys x 4 or 5 positions.
More often, I'll comp a standard in a couple of unusual keys. That's for training the fingers to find the right chords without thought. This is a metaphor rather than a neurological event. I can usually play a melody I know well in any key, but I find chords harder, so I practice that.
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I practice the rudimentary stuff in only one key over the fretboard. Diatonic and melodic scales only.
Well, half way there with melodic. Gonna use it for alt dominants some day.
But I can switch keys on the fly by ear when improvising - the learned stuff gets triggered automatically in the
current position.
This is an ongoing experiment with mediocre results.
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I don't do 12 keys every day, but I work with 2 or 3 tunes a day, I have a list of tunes I work from and group them in categories, and I pick a key for that day. Then I do those tunes in those keys. Like Joy Spring, My Foolish Heart and Bewitched in they key of D for that day.
Root movement, walking bass line, chordal, melody and improvisation all in D. I might be mindful of phrasing or specific rhythms and then just play. It becomes apparent what I'll need to work on.
Only takes two weeks before I've hit all keys.
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I am trying to learn 100 standards in 12 keys. I'm up to 25 tunes. It takes a week or two to get a new song down. Today's song: "I'll Remember April"; been humming it all day. This is rootless comping, with no improvising or chord melody or anything fancy. I hum/sing the melody or bass line initially. Later, I play along with whatever YouTube videos pop up.
I play a 4 string tenor guitar, a glorified ukulele. Don't think I could hack this on a regular guitar.
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Did you just start a thread about releasing a book? Originally Posted by _bix_
Edit: Found it, it wasn't you. Maybe it'll help you though....
Jazzin' On 4 Strings
Edit again: See you commented there already.
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Thanks for all the insight everyone, it seems like I'm not too far off with my way of trying to hit everything, but not diligently doing it every day.
Jimmy Smith, as a shapes and position player, there are no hard keys on guitar. I just slide the shapes around.
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If you learn CAGED for everything, then you can play everything in 12 keys within a couple of frets on the guitar. So we only need to work on 5 ways to do things , for each of the CAGED forms.
The easiest way for me to get this down was to just concentrate on one key, 5 different forms, for a couple of years. So all the chords (drop 2 and drop 3 mainly), all scales, arps and devices etc. Also heads, "licks" etc.
I also advocate for internalising both Tonic and Dominant material for each of the CAGED positions. This material, of course, covers all your needs (including all your substitution needs incl alt dom etc).
One thing I hear is that seeing there are only 4 inversions for 4 note chords, how does that fit with the 5 learned forms? Well, I don't like any holes, so with chord forms I'll associate each of the chord inversion shapes with a corresponding CAGED form. There will be an extra form and for that I find a chord voicing to correspond that is not like the others. For example, for maj7, I'll use drop 2 for the CAGE forms but use a drop 3 for the D form. This is important for me because I like to see one of 5 (not 4) chord shapes depending where I am on the fingerboard, and I associate all my material around the chord shape that I visualise. I don't think I'm alone in adopting this approach. Once you know your 5 moveable forms like the back of your hand, moving them to the other 11 keys is EASY.
I believe most of us have, or will waste way too much time challenging themselves to learn everything in 12 keys. I know I did before I got serious about a smarter way to do it!
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This system is pretty close to my approach. I think of CAGED as 2 groups E root (E and G shape) and A root (A C and D shape) And then if I know a tune in one shape from each group, I can get it around the cycle. Usually things fit nicely into one shape and not so bad in another. And that’s enough.
What do you mean by “tonic and dominant material”… I get a feeling that’s either something specific or very broad?
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Your bag of tricks. The ii-V and the I of your ii-V-I stuff. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
Meaning if you have licks and patterns and ideas and material you go back to and like, you should learn it in all five of the CAGED positions, rather than just having it in the place where you learned it, or where it was notated, or where is most convenient.
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There's way less of an ergonomic challenge to play in different keys on guitar compared to keys, but if you don't practice it you still can't do it. Like if you had Satin Doll worked up in C and then tried to record it in Gb without practicing it in that key, you couldn't do it. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
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A lot of players (all instruments) simplify their organisation by dividing the 7 basic chords types into 2 categories, Tonic sounding or Dominant sounding. To simplify, it's basically any chord that doesn't contain the 4th degree is Tonic in function, and every other chord has a Dominant function. So if you are developing devices, or cells, or "mini lines" that be sequenced within each of the CAGED forms, you can get by with just 2 types, ideas that are either T or D. I learned of this concept years ago from someone describing George Benson's basic approach. So if it's good enough for George... Originally Posted by AllanAllen
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I don't feel that practising in all 12 keys is necessary. I think more in terms of string sets - for instance, if I have a lick played on 3 adjacent strings, I practise it on all 4 sets of 3 adjacent strings. This is, in my mind, related to CAGED system thinking, and also works for 3NPS licks. If I can play an idea, say, in the key of Bb, then it's no big deal to play it in A, or in B, or in lots of other keys. The layout of the fretboard facilitates this approach - if i practise a lick in a few different string sets/CAGED fingerings, it's not hard to play it in any key pretty much right away.
I recently watched an interview on youtube, with Matteo Mancuso - he said pretty much the same thing, which put a big smile on my face.
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Reading through the thread I might as well do most things on 12 keys too (just to spend more time on the tune). I basically have a list of stuff to do when working on a tune. In my tuning there are 4 fingering patterns in total of any given position so things become quickly redundant when playing through a bunch of keys. It might help to limit myself to 3 strings in a given position, sure I lose range but at least the fingerings are different enough in 12 keys
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Hmmm
At the risk of pointing out the obvious, guitar has very wide frets in some places and very narrow frets in others; higher action in some places and lower in others; string tension feels different, etc.
So if we grant that it can feel a little weird playing someone else’s guitar, then it kind of follows that we’d feel a little weird playing material on our own guitar where we’re not used to playing it.
Which is to say that if you practice things in a couple keys and then get to Stablemates, or even the bridge to Sophisticated Lady or Sentimental Mood, it’s not going to go great.
It’s certainly not like piano where you’ll be totally lost, but it’ll be sloppy for sure and the ideas wont be on the tips of your fingers.
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Aside from learning jazz-blues changes in a few different keys, I've never gone and taken one tune through all keys.
Generally, I will assign one day to a single scale over the course of two weeks, which leaves two days spare to do whatever.
That, and using the following page which I tore out of Mike Steinel's book on jazz vocabulary to practice transposing motifs and playing continuous scale and arpeggio type things. So for example play six eighth notes starting on B flat, then carry on the line from where you left off from B flat onto B, play six eighth notes from B and so on, in every position on the neck, and in different rhythms and so on.
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I think with guitar I’ve always just wondered Why Not
… like … if playing in other keys on guitar is easy enough that we discuss whether or not it’s even necessary … then whats the case against it?
I feel we owe this to the trumpet players.
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Taking the same pattern through various places of the neck is useful. In my case the only exception is above the 12 fret since I play nylon string and don't have a cutaway then at that point it becomes annoying to play positions up there lol. For doing single string, double string stuff sure but yeah...
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Just wanted to add that taking one idea (say from just one of the CAGED forms) through 12 different positions is obviously not enough! If we can play any chord or associated lick or idea in 5 CAGED forms, then playing in 12 keys means 12 x 5 forms. Now double that for the 12 minor keys. If that sounds like a lot of work, it is! But we'd do well to remember that it is less than half the work a horn or piano player will do.
And they do in fact do it - if they dare to call themselves a Jazz artist.
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Yeah, I was at a jam and someone wrecked me by calling Moanin' in Bb. There are lyrics, and well, you adjust for the singer. That's part of my renewed interest in 12 keys. I didn't know there were words for Moanin' and just assumed it would always be done in F like the recordings. Going from F to Bb flipped my root strings and it was rough. I ended up laying back way more than I would have liked but we got through the song and I found a problem that needs fixing. Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
This is why the stage is the best spot to find your weaknesses.
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Originally Posted by princeplanet
A lot of players (all instruments) simplify their organisation by dividing the 7 basic chords types into 2 categories, Tonic sounding or Dominant sounding. To simplify, it's basically any chord that doesn't contain the 4th degree is Tonic in function, and every other chord has a Dominant function. So if you are developing devices, or cells, or "mini lines" that be sequenced within each of the CAGED forms, you can get by with just 2 types, ideas that are either T or D. I learned of this concept years ago from someone describing George Benson's basic approach. So if it's good enough for George...
You also need to become aware of Sub Dom. That's where much of the good stuff comes from when playing Jazz, or in a Jazz style.
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Allan.... I've always used Roman Numerals.... Like I VI II V... or I VI II V of II. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
I always hear and Play Chord Patterns.... Most Tunes are just a simple Chord Patterns.
It takes a little work.... But at least you make choices as to where your playing is coming from. And it's simple to change or Transpose.
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Reg, sometimes (or maybe often) I do not agree with you, but this time 100%. Learning the sound of chord patterns with Roman numerals and applying them in all possible combinations and inversions on the fretboard is my way to go. Originally Posted by Reg
Helpful literature: Jerry Coker's "Hearing the Changes", Cork/Elliott's LEGO bricks method, Philippe Baudoin's "Jazz: mode d'emploi, vol.1" (the latter especially)
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