SAX: Trying to sound more like a sax.

[GuyBoden]

I'm trying to sound more like a tenor sax on my guitar, I know the guitar is never going to sound exactly like a sax, but I'd like to get more of a sax type sound.

Any tips?

I love Ben Webster's breathy tone, but that breathy tone can't be achieved on guitar.

[mr. beaumont]

Instead of pretending I'm an expert on this and telling you what to do, I'll give you what I can say with confidence-- how to NEVER sound like a horn player.

1. Pick every note
2. Play everything in position (no jumping around)
3. Keep playing even while you are naturally drawing in a breath
4. Only listen to/transcribe guitar players

[teeps]

Dig some Alan Holdsworth. When I first heard Bruford I thought "Nice sax playing".

[pamosmusic]

Same as Jeff ... I love saxophone players and will never sound like one, so here are some things that I've found I have to work on to even hang with saxophone licks.

1. Super fluid left hand slurs (usually into down beats).
2. Moving positions in a way that makes triplet turns sound natural.
3. Small three and four-string sweeps (triads and root position seventh chords mostly)

[voxo]

[GuyBoden]

Yes, I think that is the best approach to getting a guitar to sound slightly more like a sax.

[Spook410]

I've played both saxophone and guitar since my youth. Doesn't mean I know anything.. but at least I know what both of them feel like in performance. And they are about as different as two instruments could be. For the listener and for the player. Phrasing is one thing but they just work different both in function and effect. The saxophone is a vocal analog. Archtops with clean tone don't do that any more than a piano does. Saxophone phrasing and saxophone licks are cool on guitar but they don't change a timbre and sound envelope that are completely different. And sax just feels so different with the constant interaction of blowing, reed, mouthpiece, constant micro adjustments.. it's a very physical kind of engagement with the instrument. Like singing you are constantly expressing the notes. It's exhausting compared to a guitar in your lap.

Still.. there is the synth route and nothing wrong with that but you might lose too much in the way of dynamics and nuance. Then there is a solid body with compression and tons of sustain. Maybe a distortion pedal.. maybe not. But the closer to a singing tone, the closer to saxophone.

[Litterick]

No chords.

[Bop Head]

[...] 4. Only listen to/transcribe guitar players

This was the first one that entered my mind when I saw the thread title.

So if you are a guitar-only type of listener and want to sound more like a horn you'd better pick some from here:

Sax Players You Like.

[GuyBoden]

I've played both saxophone and guitar since my youth. Doesn't mean I know anything.. but at least I know what both of them feel like in performance. And they are about as different as two instruments could be. For the listener and for the player. Phrasing is one thing but they just work different both in function and effect. The saxophone is a vocal analog. Archtops with clean tone don't do that any more than a piano does. Saxophone phrasing and saxophone licks are cool on guitar but they don't change a timbre and sound envelope that are completely different. And sax just feels so different with the constant interaction of blowing, reed, mouthpiece, constant micro adjustments.. it's a very physical kind of engagement with the instrument. Like singing you are constantly expressing the notes. It's exhausting compared to a guitar in your lap.

Still.. there is the synth route and nothing wrong with that but you might lose too much in the way of dynamics and nuance. Then there is a solid body with compression and tons of sustain. Maybe a distortion pedal.. maybe not. But the closer to a singing tone, the closer to saxophone.

' And sax just feels so different with the constant interaction of blowing, reed, mouthpiece, constant micro adjustments.. it's a very physical kind of engagement with the instrument. Like singing you are constantly expressing the notes.'


Many thanks for your very valued information, yes I agree, it's not just the tone and timbre of the sax, it can be one of the most expressive of musical instruments.

Trying to capture that sax expressiveness on guitar, I don't think you can.

[LeChuck]

I play sax and guitar too, one at a time, sadly.

like other forum members said, they are very different instruments, so you can 1) take the midi and synth route, 2) buy yourself a nice student sax and learn to play it or just 3) try to get some of the phrasing and “cadence” of the sax on your guitar.

Taking the 3) route, IMO the most sax-like sounding jazz guitar player would be John Scofield, and then Grant Green (this one more for his approach and phrasing than for his sound, as in that era effects for the guitar hardly existed).
So, in that vein, I would forget the big hollow box with flatwounds and clean Fender and look for a more agressive but dymnamic tone and with more sustain. Then I would steal sax licks from the big names and try to learn when and how to sustain a note and use it in my phrasing, as we jazz guitar players usually don’t (or can’t) do it.

Hope this makes sense and is helpful in any way.

[ruger9]

'

Trying to capture that sax expressiveness on guitar, I don't think you can.

Not to pick nits, but you can get that LEVEL of expressiveness on a guitar for sure... but it's not the same as a sax, obviously due to the 2 different instruments being... different.

In a related question, what players remind you of sax players, if any at all? Whether it's their timbre/tone or phrasing? I kind of think of Kenny Burrell as sax-like.

[medblues]

The timbre vs phrasings. It is tough to replicate the attack and decay of the sax tone without something like that tube mouth controller above which is essentially borrowing the upstream portion of an EWI. However, other than synth pedals, the timbre can be approximated by some distortion styles. For instance, sometimes when I am not paying attention, the famous riff of "Satisfaction" to me sounds like it is played on a horn. So, fuzz can be one way of capturing some of the feeling.

Example:

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

I learned to play both sax and trumpet in high school because I was writing charts for our bands that no one could play. I was thinking like a guitar and keyboard player with absolutely no concept at all of what makes a sax sound like a sax and a trumpet sound like a trumpet. The horn players all ran up to me muttering things like "What's the matter with you? No one could play these parts!" So I borrowed a trumpet and an alto and spent a few months learning to play enough to begin to understand what they meant.

Part of it is inherent in the physical act of playing the instrument. As someone else pointed out, blowing into something to coax music from it is entirely different from pressing on it. Horns require both blowing and pressing, with meticulous coordination of the two. Pressing a key or a string is enough to get the right note from a guitar or piano. But in addition to presing the right keys on a horn, the embouchure has to be perfect too. If it's not, the note you get could be +/- a half tone from the one you want. Further, hitting a note on the guitar or piano yields that note. Good horn players micro-adjust intonation on the fly for emphasis, accuracy, and expression.

Keeping your chops up on horns takes a lot of work, sufficient daily practice, and the will to succeed. I kept at it hard for yuears so I could play gigs if needed. And when vocal harmonizers came along, I bought one and playd through it to be a horn section. But when the Roland synths got good enough, I bought one and sold the horns.

Here's a demo I made years ago when I first got the GR20 I still use. The bass, keys, and sax are all my guitar through the synth. I got better at it over the last 25 years, and I'm close to the limits of accuracy of the GR20 now. The newest ones are much better, but this is good enough for gigging.



And here's a big band I made at about the same time. There are 3 saxes on the left (alto, tenor, and bari), a trumpet and two trombones on the right, a B-3 and the usual rhythm section behind my guitar.

[pamosmusic]

Maybe I misunderstood the question … are we trying to mimic the tone of a saxophone or are we trying to play saxophone style lines?

[GuyBoden]

Maybe I misunderstood the question … are we trying to mimic the tone of a saxophone or are we trying to play saxophone style lines?

I'd like to get more of a sax type sound on my guitar. So, yes, mimicking sax like expressions, tone and timbre.

[Bop Head]

The timbre vs phrasings. It is tough to replicate the attack and decay of the sax tone without something like that tube mouth controller above which is essentially borrowing the upstream portion of an EWI. However, other than synth pedals, the timbre can be approximated by some distortion styles. For instance, sometimes when I am not paying attention, the famous riff of "Satisfaction" to me sounds like it is played on a horn. So, fuzz can be one way of capturing some of the feeling.

Example:

Haha, this reminds me of Herbie being one of the nicest artists I met in my lighting tech job in another life, but his concert being one of the most boring ones I ever worked at. I almost woke up when he suddenly played "Rockit" as an encore. There was a guy from Herbie's crew who was supposed to do a surround thing with a joystick controlling a ProTools system connected to the FOH desk. The poor guy had really fallen asleep over his joystick and was suddenly awake LOL.

Rockit is also still a classic among breakdance crews.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

I'd like to get more of a sax type sound on my guitar. So, yes, mimicking sax like expressions, tone and timbre.

Whoops - I guess that means you're not interested in a synth, although the admonition about knowing how to play the real instrument is still key. The frequency range of a tenor sax is about 100 to 800 Hz, so a boosted midrange with attenuated lows and highs plus a bit of very slightly grainy O/D will put your tone in the ballpark. Finger vibrato is very effective as sax-like embellishment.

The critical factor is not to play like a guitarist. Pay attention to your breathing while you're playing, and structure your phrasing around your breath patterns. Pretend you're actually blowing the notes out of your guitar for a while, and you'll start to get the idea. Remember that horns cannot play more than one note at a time, so avoid double stops and chord melody. Avoid glissando (which I foolishly did not do in the Autmn Leaves track I posted a little while ago).

[Litterick]

Dig some Alan Holdsworth. When I first heard Bruford I thought "Nice sax playing".

I did not. I know Holdsworth wanted to play guitar like a sax, but I do not hear it. Maybe it is just me.

On Facebook, a better-quality copy of that clip can be seen.

Also, Annette Peacock.

[Dean_G]

Charlie Christian has often been sited as sounding sax or horn like. His hero was Lester Young. The early ES150 and moreso the EH150/185 amplifiers were big contributors but mostly he heard and breathed lines like a horn. With phrasing and importantly breath dynamics players can evoke the expression of sax lines. Players that come immediately to mind for me would be Sonny Greenwich first of all, and Dennis Budimir, Jimmy Raney, Jim Hall and others and most would say they listened primarily to horn players more that guitarists or equally so. For me ironically the aforementioned are more saxlike than Holdsworth has ever seemed. Back in the day cats would say "did you bring your horn" regardless of your particular instrument. Also in addition to listening to sax players, there's a lot to learn that way from blues players like Albert Collins, Buddy Guy, etc regarding "horn like" timbres and energy

[GuyBoden]

I guess that means you're not interested in a synth

I am seriously looking into guitar synth type options, I very much appreciate your comments.

[ruger9]

Charlie Christian has often been sited as sounding sax or horn like. His hero was Lester Young. The early ES150 and moreso the EH150/185 amplifiers were big contributors but mostly he heard and breathed lines like a horn. With phrasing and importantly breath dynamics players can evoke the expression of sax lines. Players that come immediately to mind for me would be Sonny Greenwich first of all, and Dennis Budimir, Jimmy Raney, Jim Hall and others and most would say they listened primarily to horn players more that guitarists or equally so. For me ironically the aforementioned are more saxlike than Holdsworth has ever seemed. Back in the day cats would say "did you bring your horn" regardless of your particular instrument. Also in addition to listening to sax players, there's a lot to learn that way from blues players like Albert Collins, Buddy Guy, etc regarding "horn like" timbres and energy

I think this is the most helpful reply. Beyond this, you'd need a guitar synth. I toyed with the idea because I have a cover band where I could do a "sax" solo 4-5 times a night, but the size and cost of the system makes it impractical.

Agree that CC was always the most horn-sounding... most of this was his phrasing, and I agree the overdriven very mid-focused EH150/185 also "helped". But is phrasing was king for sounding like a horn.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

I think this is the most helpful reply. Beyond this, you'd need a guitar synth. I toyed with the idea because I have a cover band where I could do a "sax" solo 4-5 times a night, but the size and cost of the system makes it impractical.

You got the cost issue right! The current Roland (GR55) is really good, but it’s about $1k with pickup. And they still use the same GK pickup that came with my GR20 years ago and has to be mounted in front of the bridge. So there’s still a perceptible delay (much shorter than with earlier versions of the synthesizer, but not yet gone) unless you go to Ghost bridge saddle sensors for another $300 plus installation of the saddles, onboard electronics and 13 pin jack.

There’s no size issue to speak of. The entire system is in a pedal shorter than a small effects board. I’ve had no problem at all using the GR20 on very crowded stages and in very close quarters. Before this one, I had the first of the modern series, a one space rack mounted MIDI converter and a XV2020 synth module each of which was a half width box. I carried it in a small SKB 5 space “effects rack” road case along with a Crate stereo preamp and an Alesis 100 watt power amp. That was a pain. But the GR pedals are small and very easy to use..

[Dean_G]

If you are a bit synth savvy you can put together a pretty capable "guitar synth" for a modest outlay using a Sonuus G2M audio to midi converter and any synth with a midi input. They have minimal lag and take any audio signal, are optimized for guitar and are less than $100. Great for doubling guitar lines. I have had the best results using a Modal Electronics Craftsynth 2.0 wavetable synth. Had to develop my own instrument patches. It's a very good little synth and though discontinued are usually around $100.00 used. Very compact setup. Don't have mine anymore unfortunately.

[BWV]

ISTM that fetishizing another instrument leads to missing the opportunities offered by the guitar. I said this as a somewhat reformed pianophile