SAX: Trying to sound more like a sax.

[princeplanet]

The timbre vs phrasings. It is tough to replicate the attack and decay of the sax tone without something like that tube mouth controller above which is essentially borrowing the upstream portion of an EWI. However, other than synth pedals, the timbre can be approximated by some distortion styles. For instance, sometimes when I am not paying attention, the famous riff of "Satisfaction" to me sounds like it is played on a horn. So, fuzz can be one way of capturing some of the feeling.

Example:

Meh, as far as fuzzes go, not the best example for sounding "horn like". There's an older pedal around, I think it was called the "Trombetta" or something, a little better maybe but basically still a fuzz pedal. As for the, SWAM sax synth idea with a midi guitar + mouth controller, with a bit of practice and maybe blending a bit of the guitar's "natural" tone in with it, could yield some interesting results. Bit gimmicky, but then, I've seen some great sax players play with EWI's, so why the hell not?

[Bop Head]

How about a wah-wah?

[Average Joe]

A volume pedal might help solve some of the dynamics problems in trying to phrase like a horn. In the rock world Knopfler got a very vocal quality out of his guitar from working the volume (among other things). Other than that, I imagine a bit of overdrive to help with the sustain as will not being afraid to bend in and out of notes

[ruger9]

There’s no size issue to speak of. The entire system is in a pedal shorter than a small effects board..

If you are in a cover band and already have a medium-sized pedalboard to achieve all the various sounds you need, then size IS an issue.

EHX has made single pedals that take a guitar signal and emulate strings, some horns, various keyboards... yet no one has apparently been able to make one that can emulate a saxophone. I've tried this one, and... no.

[grahambop]

There’s that effect Kurt Rosenwinkel uses to reduce the attack on the guitar notes, I think he said somewhere he was trying to make it sound more horn/sax-like. There was a thread on it here, I seem to recall it was a POG2 pedal or something.

Must admit it sounds more synth-like to me than sax, but I guess he was trying to reduce the ‘plucked’ sound a bit.

[BreckerFan]

I guess it really depends what's meant by sound like a saxophone, but I don't know that I've ever heard a guitarist truly emulate a saxophone sound. I don't think the synth thing is very convincing; you can end up with some cool sounds, but they aren't really saxophone sounds.

Like someone else said, someone like Charlie Christian is the most hornlike guitarist that comes to mind, partially because of his vocab and phrasing, but also his sound. I feel like the combination of his pickup and a driven tube amp compresses the notes in a way that approaches a saxophone. The attack is smoothed off but it's not obviously distorted, and there's still more liveliness than the typical dark jazz sound. Idk.

[princeplanet]

...
Like someone else said, someone like Charlie Christian is the most hornlike guitarist that comes to mind, partially because of his vocab and phrasing, but also his sound....

I read this everywhere, but I just don't hear it! Sure, I understand people in the late 30's outside a venue where CC was playing apparently exclaimed they thought they were hearing a horn player, when listening from outside the venue! Add to that the fact that no-one had ever heard an amplified guitar before, so...

The thing is, CC's style is very percussive, he hit the strings hard with all those downstrokes! I can hear how his phrases may have been influenced by certain horn players, but then so were a lot of piano players from the same era, (and you wouldn't say they sounded like horn players either). Further, I would say no Jazz guitarist has ever really sounded "horn-like", although Sco has had his moments...

[pamosmusic]

I read this everywhere, but I just don't hear it! Sure, I understand people in the late 30's outside a venue where CC was playing apparently exclaimed they thought they were hearing a horn player, when listening from outside the venue! Add to that the fact that no-one had ever heard an amplified guitar before, so...

The thing is, CC's style is very percussive, he hit the strings hard with all those downstrokes! I can hear how his phrases may have been influenced by certain horn players, but then so were a lot of piano players from the same era, (and you wouldn't say they sounded like horn players either). Further, I would say no Jazz guitarist has ever really sounded "horn-like", although Sco has had his moments...

Yeah I kind of agree with this? I would be interested to hear someone articulate why CC sounds hornlike.

Honestly Holdsworth kind of has it for me. That super saturated tone and that incredible sheets of sound vocabulary. He could pass off as a late sixties sax legend if you squint hard enough.

[BreckerFan]

There's something about the roundness of the notes and the sustain that gives me sax vibes. There's a lot of attack, but the notes don't decay, and the notes are all very even. I think the version on this album is darker than some others that sound like they've been eq'ed to sound more live, which gives more of that vibe too, but in the room the sound would probably be a lot different.

But in general I agree that guitarists don't really sound like saxophones no matter what we do. We're stuck with what we got

[princeplanet]

There's something about the roundness of the notes and the sustain that gives me sax vibes. There's a lot of attack, but the notes don't decay, and the notes are all very even. I think the version on this album is darker than some others that sound like they've been eq'ed to sound more live, which gives more of that vibe too, but in the room the sound would probably be a lot different.

But in general I agree that guitarists don't really sound like saxophones no matter what we do. We're stuck with what we got

Not his best playing, but still beautiful. It's not horn-like to me, but his unique articulation and sound always kinda sounds "liquid", or something. Also, I don't really hear the birth of Bebop in his playing (as is often cited), but I definitely do hear the birth of Texas Swing, Rockabilly and, yep, Rock'n'Roll !

Charlie Christian is our guitar Godhead, and should be a household name. Yet, there are way too many electric guitarists who have grown up copping licks that can be traced all the way back to him, and they've never even heard of him! No statue? Not even a movie about him! Do we have to wait til the centenary of his death?

[GuyBoden]

To my ears, I like this midi sax the best, it's a good expressive sound, if not exactly sax like, a different type of sound, but a good sound.

The higher pitches don't sound as good as the lower pitches to my ears. But, a very expressive and impressive performance using a midi sax type sound.

For a comparison here's the real version by Eric Dolphy - Tenderly. (Yes, it sounds better.)

[ruger9]

This guy isn't trying to sound "like a sax", but CC is his hero... an EH-150 and CC pickup do go along way to the sax "timbre", add in horn phrasing, and it's probably as close as you'll get without going the synth route...

Then of course you've got SRV playing the sax part on guitar in Burrell's Chitlins Con Carne... a little dirt, turn the tone control down some, play it smooth...

[docsteve]

Whichever route you want to go soundwise, you'll have to emulate sax lines. As an ex-Tenor player, I find that melodic playing works best for me, with a lot of slurs, slides and hammer-ons. Also, land on those long notes and give them some expression.

[orri]

Listen to sax players, select a favourite you especially enjoy listening to and want to sound like (my pick is Lester Young).
Select a recording (or a part of a recording) and learn to sing the saxophone part. Mimic their timing, phrasing, dynamics etc. as closely as you can with your voice.
Then try it on guitar and think about how it sounded on saxophone while you're playing it.


Here is a discussion where two classical violinists (Brett and Eddy) are talking to a classical pianist (Sophie) about how to be more expressive on the piano. I think Sophie nails it when she says "first of all you have to hear it in your head" and I also like's Brett's paraphrasing "hear it and preempt it"
(the relevant part of the video is between 5:30 and 6:30)

[ruger9]

Listen to sax players, select a favourite you especially enjoy listening to and want to sound like (my pick is Lester Young).

For me it's Lester Young and Ben Webster.

[mikeSF]

I started as a sax player.
for swing tunes try this:
1) pick the upbeat and slur the downbeats (8th notes sound like this: ta ta-uh ta-uh ta-uh...)
2) resist the urge to apply triplet style swing for 8th note runs. instead reduce the swingyness to almost straight 8ths, particularly at faster tempos.
3) apply accents(louder notes) sporadically, but only on the upbeats. This becomes automatic since you are now tonguing upbeats. make sense?
4) reduce pick attack as much as possible. There isn't any trick for this, just mentally try to hit softer.

[pamosmusic]

I started as a sax player.
for swing tunes try this:
1) pick the upbeat and slur the downbeats (8th notes sound like this: ta ta-uh ta-uh ta-uh...)
2) resist the urge to apply triplet style swing for 8th note runs. instead reduce the swingyness to almost straight 8ths, particularly at faster tempos.
3) apply accents(louder notes) sporadically, but only on the upbeats. This becomes automatic since you are now tonguing upbeats. make sense?
4) reduce pick attack as much as possible. There isn't any trick for this, just mentally try to hit softer.

my man.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Listen to sax players, select a favourite you especially enjoy listening to and want to sound like (my pick is Lester Young).

For me, it’s Art Pepper and Paul Desmond.

[wintermoon]

Not his best playing, but still beautiful. It's not horn-like to me, but his unique articulation and sound always kinda sounds "liquid", or something. Also, I don't really hear the birth of Bebop in his playing (as is often cited), but I definitely do hear the birth of Texas Swing, Rockabilly and, yep, Rock'n'Roll !

Charlie Christian is our guitar Godhead, and should be a household name. Yet, there are way too many electric guitarists who have grown up copping licks that can be traced all the way back to him, and they've never even heard of him! No statue? Not even a movie about him! Do we have to wait til the centenary of his death?

that's interesting, most people point to Stompin at the Savoy or Solo Flight as his finest.

[princeplanet]

I started as a sax player.
for swing tunes try this:
1) pick the upbeat and slur the downbeats (8th notes sound like this: ta ta-uh ta-uh ta-uh...)
2) resist the urge to apply triplet style swing for 8th note runs. instead reduce the swingyness to almost straight 8ths, particularly at faster tempos.
3) apply accents(louder notes) sporadically, but only on the upbeats. This becomes automatic since you are now tonguing upbeats. make sense?
4) reduce pick attack as much as possible. There isn't any trick for this, just mentally try to hit softer.

You'll sound 2% more like sax playing sonically, but advice like "soft attack" etc may make guitar lines sound less dynamic, exciting or compelling - funny enough, all the important things I love about sax players.

[princeplanet]

that's interesting, most people point to Stompin at the Savoy or Solo Flight as his finest.

Well, the Minton's gig was special, innit?

charlie christian solo flight mintons - Google Search

[pamosmusic]

You'll sound 2% more like sax playing sonically, but advice like "soft attack" etc may make guitar lines sound less dynamic, exciting or compelling - funny enough, all the important things I love about sax players.

Not sure I agree with this. Maybe just not the right word … a softer attack probably brings the overall volume down, but he also specifically mentioned accents and slurring and that’s a really big part of what makes sax style (and all) jazz lines sound dynamic. The way parts of the line jump out and others fall away.

[Bop Head]

[...] Also, I don't really hear the birth of Bebop in his playing (as is often cited), [...]

Dizzy quotes John Collins as being more advanced.

To be, or not-- to bop : memoirs : Gillespie, Dizzy, 1917-1993 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
To be, or not-- to bop : memoirs : Gillespie, Dizzy, 1917-1993 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

[princeplanet]

Not sure I agree with this. Maybe just not the right word … a softer attack probably brings the overall volume down, but he also specifically mentioned accents and slurring and that’s a really big part of what makes sax style (and all) jazz lines sound dynamic. The way parts of the line jump out and others fall away.

I get how we can still be dynamic within a limited range (say, soft to medium), but why not expand that range to be soft>>>LOUD! It's just my personal taste, but I can't listen to soft guitar players going "plinkety plink" all night. I've always wondered why that's encouraged and have come to the conclusion that it's easier to control one's playing with a softer touch. That and the fact that players who can't control their loud bits can sound amateurish, or at least not seem able to marry the loud part of their dynamic range to the sound of their instrument and amp.

We've seen this kinda discussion on this forum a few times and I know that there aren't too many like me that seem to prefer players that can really "dig in" occasionally (but not in a ham-fisted kinda way). Dunno, I think I look for some excitement, which is probably why I listen to way more horn payers!

[pamosmusic]

I get how we can still be dynamic within a limited range (say, soft to medium), but why not expand that range to be soft>>>LOUD! It's just my personal taste, but I can't listen to soft guitar players going "plinkety plink" all night. I've always wondered why that's encouraged and have come to the conclusion that it's easier to control one's playing with a softer touch. That and the fact that players who can't control their loud bits can sound amateurish, or at least not seem able to marry the loud part of their dynamic range to the sound of their instrument and amp.

We've seen this kinda discussion on this forum a few times and I know that there aren't too many like me that seem to prefer players that can really "dig in" occasionally (but not in a ham-fisted kinda way). Dunno, I think I look for some excitement, which is probably why I listen to way more horn payers!

Maybe frame it a different way. Guitar has a notoriously narrow dynamic range. So if you want to be dynamic at all, then the baseline dynamic needs to be quieter. Otherwise there’s nowhere to go when you want to dig in.

(I like players who dig in too)