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Dammit Miller!! Looks like I've got more work to do. I've never played it any other way. That's over a half century of hard-wired nerdiness. I'm a hopeless case :-)
Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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01-28-2024 02:31 PM
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Great video, Christian.
"Shift, don't stretch" is a good rule of thumb.
When you play the major scale two ways and say that most listeners prefer the sound of the second version (three fingers), I am not surprised. It does have more of a bounce to it.
Really well done, and well thought out.
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Naughty! Originally Posted by ccroft
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Does the amount of notes that are picked change with using 3 compared with 4 fingers?
Using my usual 4 finger fretting technique, I pick four times on the lick example below.
Everything else, I use a hammer on or pull off.
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Question: why pick those particular notes and not the others? Originally Posted by GuyBoden
Does the amount of notes that are picked change with using 3 compared with 4 fingers?
Using my usual 4 finger fretting technique, I pick four times on the lick example below.
Everything else, I use a hammer on or pull off.
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Thanks Mark! Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
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Christian, so yes, who isn't interested in learning and improving?
What works for one may not work for another, so I think it's important to find out what approach is appropriate for you to achieve your objectives. Trying to cop some Benson licks by emulating his picking technique, for example, could be completely the wrong way to go.
Yes, I experimented with fingerings for scale runs up and down ages ago, and I personally see no sense in approaching a common or garden major scale from, say, bottom A (6th string) to top E (1st string) sans pinky.
OTOH, if I tend to be 3 fingered when it comes to funk and groove, it's because that's where the power is. The 4th finger will still see some action, however (I know because I checked out a couple of my lockdown videos to make sure
)
And yes, I'll still be interested to see how this "self-imposed" and "hornful" 3 finger thing goes as applied to Bebop phrasing, once you've got it down. Play through a few choruses when you do
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Dunno, why don’t you try it and see? Originally Posted by GuyBoden
Does the amount of notes that are picked change with using 3 compared with 4 fingers?
Using my usual 4 finger fretting technique, I pick four times on the lick example below.
Everything else, I use a hammer on or pull off.
I think it’s about the same for me. I play about 30% slurs in any case, but I had to drill that stuff systematically again about 10 years ago. Something about sliding makes it feel quite natural for some reason.
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Yeah, this is what I allude to in the video just after the titles. We think of jazz being separate from funk and groove music, and blues. More ‘cerebral’. The result of this is, perhaps, to create a self fulfilling prophecy where we play jazz more clever clever and less groove oriented because we think of it that way? Originally Posted by Peter C
Christian, so yes, who isn't interested in learning and improving?
What works for one may not work for another, so I think it's important to find out what approach is appropriate for you to achieve your objectives. Trying to cop some Benson licks by emulating his picking technique, for example, could be completely the wrong way to go.
Yes, I experimented with fingerings for scale runs up and down ages ago, and I personally see no sense in approaching a common or garden major scale from, say, bottom A (6th string) to top E (1st string) sans pinky.
OTOH, if I tend to be 3 fingered when it comes to funk and groove, it's because that's where the power is. The 4th finger will still see some action, however (I know because I checked out a couple of my lockdown videos to make sure )
And yes, I'll still be interested to see how this "self-imposed" and "hornful" 3 finger thing goes as applied to Bebop phrasing, once you've got it down. Play through a few choruses when you do
I think this is a mistake. Jazz music is usually more complex harmonically than funk or blues, but it is closer to these musics than western classical. It shares that rhythmic dna.
so - jazz needs the same power imo.
Otoh playing three fingered is manifestly not the only way to do it, but we need to find a way to get the same authority and power if we choose not to do it that way. Again Miles Okazaki:
“In certain circles of guitar playing, tucking away the fourth finger and putting the thumb over the top of the neck is considered improper technique. I would side with the contrary view, that this is an absolutely natural way to approach the guitar when the goal is strong articulation, groove, and rhythm. Using primarily three fingers does not at all limit speed or harmonic options — look at all the stuff drummers can play with two sticks! And the third finger easily spans four frets when the hand is angled towards the guitar’s body. This approach is clear in the video footage that we do have of Wes Montgomery and George Benson, who modeled their styles after Christian. I once had the pleasure of sitting with George Benson in his house and listening to this very solo on the record player, while he pointed out his favorite lines.”
Stompin’ at Minton’s (by Miles Okazaki) | DO THE M@TH
If you aren’t familiar with Miles, he is very progressive jazz musician as well as a scholar of the past.
Re the 4th finger… That’s not quite my point as I state in the video quite pointedly. All the players I cite use the little finger sometimes. It’s especially good for twiddles and grace notes and that’s when we hear Wes et al using it.
that said, I think one could play most things with three fingers. I’m fairly confident I could play most bop heads this way, and I’ll be working on it next few weeks.
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Who plays or thinks of jazz this way? Most the jazz I love succeeds precisely because it is both 'clever-clever' as you put it, cerebral and deeply earthy and groovy. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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So here’s two Bud Powell transcriptions played by Miles
In the first he is using I think exclusively three fingers
In the second he uses his fourth finger quite a bit - However his hand position is basically the same and three fingers remain dominant presumably were he felt it necessary
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Honestly I think lots of people do. Particularly younger newer musicians. I think younger musicians who are learning all the complexity for the first time are (understandably) inclined to think of the theoretical complexity as the most important aspect. Originally Posted by James W
It’s also probably worth mentioning that you can take tests on theory and measure speed but “groove” kind of defies easy assessment. So the focus in a lot of music programs is on the assessable stuff (which is understandable and not, in itself, a knock on music programs).
Probably those two things combine to make young educated musicians a bit more preoccupied with what they *can* do with the music, rather than what they should do.
Thats definitely how I was.
I don’t think it’s some awful pervasive problem, rather I think the same musicians who sometimes start out this way end up tempering it and putting it in its proper context later in their careers.
This is all based on me watching the musicians I watch and mostly guessing at what’s going on in their heads. So take it for what it’s worth.
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I think a lot of people do. Certainly me in the early days. Most young players need to go to school on rhythm and develop a finer appreciation of rhythm and time and an appreciation for those aspects of music as a listener esp. those of my background… it’s a cultural thing. Originally Posted by James W
If you’ve been playing in an African-American church every Sunday or grew up in Brazil you’ll probably have a better handle on it.
I was drawn to jazz initially because it was clever and because of the improvisation element. I don’t think I’m alone.
They have programs for developing this stuff at jazz colleges. It’s a known issue.
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More than a little sideways, since it's about the right hand and a folk-fingerstyle tradition, but it kept nagging at my attention as I read this very interesting thread:
The wonderful Hawaiian slack-key player (and singer and composer and teacher) Sonny Chillingworth was asked about two- and three-finger right-hand playing and which he used. His answer: "Whichever finger gets there first."
Over in the folk-fingerstyle world there are long discussions (quite like this thread's) about right-hand technique, historically and technically considered, and I keep coming back to Sonny's remark.Last edited by RLetson; 01-28-2024 at 09:00 PM.
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Who would you say are the 4 fingered guys who play with power and authority? Johnny Smith? Pat Martino?
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I grew up listening to Bitches Brew so could never think of jazz as being separate from funk and groove music.
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Ah, that's a bummer. Hard Bop was "groovy" enough for me Originally Posted by James W
I grew up listening to Bitches Brew so could never think of jazz as being separate from funk and groove music. .
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That's due to my technique, I only pick the first note on a string and then either hammer on or pull off all the other notes, until I change string. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
So, I only need to pick a string once, in theory at least.
I'm not a exponent of 'hammer ons from nowhere'.
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You will find some answers here.
It's interesting.
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Got it. Originally Posted by GuyBoden
Well it’s pretty common (but not universal) practice to pick or slur based on the rhythmic placement of the notes. Guitarists have string changes to contend with, but by and large the goal is often that the notes that are picked or slurred won’t change.
Though part of Christian’s argument seems to be that the three-fingered left hand would sort of force a person into one-fret slides and things like that that would make that rhythmic placement of slurs a bit more natural?
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Yes, that works, I was practicing with three fingers yesterday, but sliding up or down a fret, where my extra fourth finger was usually needed. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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yes fun discussion... They are.. All good, right. Different styles imply different effects. Effect are created by different ways of playing same notes. They are like Licks.
Basically anyone can spend an amount of time working on a solo or whatever and be able to pull it off. Sometimes the results become somewhat forced and help create that vanilla thing.
Vanilla isn't just a harmonic or melodic reference. The vanilla rhythmic thing can be worse...LOL
Anyway... personally fingerings, picking and positions become.... like licks. So instead of just thinking or hearing short licks, a few beats or phrases. When you choose or just happen to be using in the moment...a fingering etc... you open a door of Licks. Performance style licks, ( fingerings, positions, pickings etc..) help naturally shape what your playing into a style or feel.
So I agree with most of the direction of thread..... It's just you generally need them all. And you generally need a solid REFERENCE to start with.
The other detail ... we tend to always try and copy or compare ourselves to the greats. That's a really high bar.
Most of those players can or could play anyway they want to. For most of us... there just are no short cuts.
They are ugly, suck etc... but Spider drills.... expanded spider drills are really the fasted approach for developing the ability to have technique. To have the options of playing different styles without having to practice over and over etc...
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I think the main point Christian makes is about the orientation of the hand.
If you look at this Herb Ellis video (-it's about 15-30 seconds in before you see the left hand in action), you see the thumb over the neck and you see the three-finger approach. Herb also uses his pinky, and if you work through any of Herb's books (and I have), you know he can keep the pinky pretty busy at times. But this orientation of the hand is going to make it EASIER to use the third finger in many situations than it would be to use the pinky (because that would require a reorientation of the hand.)
That third finger is always better than the pinky if you want to apply a bend with vibrato, or just a sustained vibrato.
One can work either way. One can work both ways. It's a problem if you practice one way (-say, doing technique exercises and conventional scale practice) but play music (songs, improv) that call for the other one. Looking at Gypsy jazz, we can see the deliberate fingering of scales to arpeggios to facilitate the playing of that music (at a brisk tempo with punch.)
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I will say … I am a hardcore anti-thumb partisan.
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Poor you Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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So you never could finger a G7 to C7/9 like this:
3-x-3-4-3-x, fingered T-x-1-3-2, to x-3-2-3-3-3, fingered x-2-1-3-3-3 and with a half-step above approach chord (Db7/9, tritone sub of G7).
Or you do not have 2 choices for a drop-3 minor with the root in in the bass
like Am7, 5-x-5-5-5, fingered either 2-x-3-3-3-x or T-x-1-1-1.
I think there is a video on Jon Rainey's YT channel (IIRC) where his father explains how and why he is using his thumb for fingering bass notes with the thumb on the 6th string.
I think I started doing it with rock clichés in the Talking 'Bout My Generation / Highway To Hell vein.
EDIT: The index is a sort of anchor on the 4th string in my first example.
EDIT 2: I just realized my fingering for the G7 in my first example is actually T-x-1-3-1-x which makes much more sense.Last edited by Bop Head; 01-30-2024 at 03:25 AM.
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