Three fingered technique - actually RIGHT?

[pamosmusic]

Min 4:00 in the OP video illustrates precisely why the 4th finger is required to play a major arp cleanly and evenly. IMO, etc.

By the way, being a self-taught, proficient teen (rock-)blues player, it never occured to me not to use my pinky when needed (which was actually quite a lot). Where did this idea come from?

Observation, probably.

Video of lots of jazz guitarists shows them favoring the third finger pretty heavily.

My own experience would be like yours (plus classical performance in college to reinforce it), but watching videos of a lot of jazz guitarists, the tendency away from the fourth finger is there.

[Christian Miller]

Min 4:00 in the OP video illustrates precisely why the 4th finger is required to play a major arp cleanly and evenly. IMO, etc.

Well that may be a skills issue on my part haha.

It’s in part a matter of aesthetics. This is the sound of some of my favourite players - not even, or precise in that way, but very musical, flowing and swinging. While my playing of it may be imperfect you can clearly hear the effect this has in the hands of a master - Wes Montgomery for one.

But you NEVER get the very precise even sound of a player like Allan with rapid arpeggios etc. The modern guitar movement of Neo-shredders etc wouldn’t be able to use this approach for their super precise and clean aesthetic. Which is a feature for some and a bug for others haha.

I think of the second approach perhaps unfairly as Nerd guitar. I think the former sounds vibier. Clean and even is not the be all and end all. Maybe a player could move between both depending on the musical need?

By the way, being a self-taught, proficient teen (rock-)blues player, it never occured to me not to use my pinky when needed (which was actually quite a lot). Where did this idea come from?

don’t get fixated on the pinky thing per se. That’s not quite the point. As I clearly state in the video all those players use their pinky at least sometimes. Pete hardly at all, Kurt and Pat quite a bit more. The pronated thumb-over left hand disadvantages the pinky naturally compared to a more classical posture; so it’s more of an effect than a cause imo. The significant thing is the left hand posture and the propensity to shift with the third finger.

You can appreciate by watching all of those players that they share this basic posture for single note lines, many of them modifying to a more ‘trad’ position for chordal playing.

[Christian Miller]

Observation, probably.

Video of lots of jazz guitarists shows them favoring the third finger pretty heavily.

My own experience would be like yours (plus classical performance in college to reinforce it), but watching videos of a lot of jazz guitarists, the tendency away from the fourth finger is there.

yeah, I mean careful observation is a big one.

Did you know Barry learned chords by watching the hands of pianists on gigs?

It strikes me that we are a little bit conditioned to perceive music purely though the ears but there is that visual information side of it which is very rich. And the physical side of playing and instrument is very interesting. I really enjoy the way classical pianists talk about it. I haven’t really seen much commentary of this type among jazz guitar players.

[rpjazzguitar]

Seems to me that a guitarist who is reading all kinds of lines would find it easier to use the pinkie.

But, a guitarist who mostly gets to choose what he plays, might tend to sound less scale-like if he doesn't use the pinkie.

Of course, you don't have a choice if you're playing a head, but most heads aren't that demanding. Donna Lee is one near the extreme and I have some vague memories of 3 finger players handling it.

West Coast Blues comes to mind. Wes played it no-pinkie. I can't figure out how he did that.

[Cunamara]

I got trained in using all four fingers from the very beginning back in 1978, so I won't be reverting to the three finger style anytime soon. However, there are a lot of brilliant jazz guitarists who predominantly use three fingers. Charlie Christian, Wes Montgomery, George Benson, Peter Bernstein, Barney Kessel, Jimmy Raney and on and on. Clearly, it is a viable and effective technique. I think whatever works for anyone is the best for them.

[Peter C]

No pinky, no plinky:

From way back
Jan Akkerman

Now
Gilad Hekselman
Pasquale Grasso

That's without thinking too much.

[st.bede]

I have to thank you maestro Miller. There was a moment of clarity while I watched your vid. Seriously this is deep stuff about choices I have made along my path. Stuff I have be doing but taking for granted for a long time.

I have one experience from my past to share. Back in 1992-ish I was taking jazz guitar lesson. I was warming up and playing some bluesy type runs. My teacher looked over and said, “we have to work on your fingering”. I knew what he meant, so I ripped into to some faster “correct” playing. It was apparent that we were not going to need to work on that.

I shift back and forth depending on what sound I want, or how fast I need to play. Basically my brain says: blues-ish equals three finger stuff, and that fast clean sophisticated equals four finger stuff. (That thinking goes back to assumptions that are from my youth. Those assumptions are also based on where I grew up).

Your video demonstrated that is somewhat of a false dichotomy. That knowledge allows me to dig in a little deeper and make more sophisticated choices.

This could be one of those realizations that I carry with me for life. I have to see how it works itself out in my playing.

[Christian Miller]

Seems to me that a guitarist who is reading all kinds of lines would find it easier to use the pinkie.

But, a guitarist who mostly gets to choose what he plays, might tend to sound less scale-like if he doesn't use the pinkie.

Of course, you don't have a choice if you're playing a head, but most heads aren't that demanding. Donna Lee is one near the extreme and I have some vague memories of 3 finger players handling it.

West Coast Blues comes to mind. Wes played it no-pinkie. I can't figure out how he did that.

having a little knock on DL with the grab and whack. Seems doable. Might be worth another video at some point with tabs and such. Will see how it goes.

[Christian Miller]

Pinky is often used for twiddles. For example that 4-b5-4-b3 Grant Green style lick. Metheny and Wes have similar moves. They both do a 2-b3-2-1 thing that is mechanically identical.

It works pretty naturally with the general hand position.

my main beef with my pinky and why I might want to avoid using it is that it rushes a bit. Does anyone else have this problem or is it just me and my stupid hands?

[Christian Miller]

No pinky, no plinky:

From way back
Jan Akkerman

Now
Gilad Hekselman
Pasquale Grasso

yeah I mean Pasquale Grasso was as a teenager, a competition winning classical guitar virtuoso (although he told me he doesn’t play much CG any more.) But his is not a technique you get without serious early years input. The finger independence is something else. I think it’s unique in jazz guitar.

In jazz his main thing is emulating bebop piano (I hope he wouldn’t mind me saying haha, he is a HUGE Charlie Christian fan).

Gilad plays Bach two part inventions for fun. In general he is a highly polyphonic player an he likes his very cleanly articulated arpeggio and intervallic ideas .

you can’t really do either of those things with three fingers tbf.

it’s quite interesting to compare the approaches with how Pete’s three fingered approach work. They lead to different vibes; for me Gilad more fantastical and ethereal, Pete more grounded and earthy. Without even expressing a preference which you find resonates more with you is going to be personal. Gilad of course was Peters student.

Two utterly different approaches to an uptempo tune (sorry
for repost.)

Two of the players who I have found most satisfying as single note soloists while having very classical four fingered techniques - Adam Rogers and Jim Hall. (Pete was Jim’s student.) Adam is extremely positional and shifts a lot with the little finger.

[ccroft]

Always a fun discussion, and a good video on the subject. 3 fingers is actually right, most of the time.

As a 4 finger, thumb on back, neck-angled-up guy I have a few thoughts. I like the phrasing you get from 'micro shifts'. You certainly can shift 1 fret with any finger. I feel like it's not either/or. Why not both depending on the phrasing you're after? I came to it trying to get the horn phrasing of bop heads.

I wonder how much guys like Wes and George actually thought about things like this? Seems to me these guys would've made great music if they only used 2 fingers. Or if they used 5. If you want to sound like them it's probably a good idea to focus on 3.

Seems a lot of which-works-better-for-whom has to do with how you hold the guitar. Thumb on back and 4 fingers is uncomfortable to me if I'm playing with it on my right knee. You can see it clearly in Christian's video. On the right leg, the left hand falls naturally with thumb on side, fingers angled, and pinky pretty much out of the loop. Thumb over and 3 feels bad at the angle I play.

BTW: the reason I'm at a more 'classical' angle has nothing to do with teachings or thinking about what kind of music I wanted to play. Some 54 years ago I got an SG. I started out playing it on my right knee like I'd been playing dreadnoughts. The tiny body felt really awkward like that. And when I played standing the guitar was in a completely different place and angle. So I started using a strap when seated to keep the guitar in the same relative position. Lately I sometimes even put my left foot on something to take some weight off the shoulder. See Martin and Pasquale. I'm 70 now and sometimes the shoulder complains.

I'd been playing cello for 5 years before I got into guitar. So... there's the 4 fingers and more upright neck. I never thought about how my hand should work on guitar. I just did what felt natural to me and let my ears guide me. Back then it was much harder to know how the greats held or picked their guitars.

I didn't look as cool as some of the other kids in town with their axes at the knees though.
Christian is correct. It's nerdy:

[Bop Head]

Recently I came across a video from a series where Sammy Hagar (hard rock singer and former Van Halen frontman for those who do not know him) drives around and visits rock star colleagues. In that video he meets blues rocker Billy Gibbons of ZZ Top and I was surprised that Gibbons (who allegedly was Jimi Hendrix' favorite guitarist) uses his pinky quite a lot.

[Peter C]

When you're getting a groove on, things do tend to be a lot more "3+1", I suppose because the pinky is not the best at transmitting energy. Anyway, even so, Benson seems to use his pinky as much as anyone else.

[GuyBoden]

How do you three finger players play 4+ note descending chromatic lines like this:



Just curious.

[Christian Miller]

If it’s in treble clef and not guitar pitch, I’d play the fingering as follows

String 1 - 2 1
String 2 - 3 2 1
String 3 - 3 1 2 3
String 1 - 1 or 2

With a sort of small micro shift to reach the major third on string 3

Not the only solution but this flows nicely and avoids putting the Gb and D on the same fret on adjacent strings, not that that’s a huge issue.

I also did it in guitar pitch. The same fingering works on strings 3 4 5. A bit shiftier down there.

It might also be hip to introduce more shifts - for instance using the 1st finger for the first two notes would be swinging.

String 1 - 1-1
String 2 - 3 2 1
String 3 - 3 1 2-2
String 1 - 1
That has a nice horn like flow

EDIT: I’m not habitually a three fingered player, but I’m practicing stuff that way atm. It feels good.

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[Christian Miller]

I think in general, half step shifts. But those shifts sound good by and large if they occur on upbeats into downbeats, which follows horn tonguing and articulation. (Four fingered players would use more hammers and pull offs in the same way.)

i think this can be quite intuitive with the slides?If the phrase is properly heard and felt.

[Peter C]

One other thing is that maybe you don't get to choose your default approach, rather your 2D:4D ratio does. Anyway, as pointed out in GuyBoden's post, there has to be some 4th finger involvement to facilitate some passages, and it's good to explore the more "ethereal" side of things if you're a born groovester. It's all about balance, right?

[GuyBoden]

If it’s in treble clef and not guitar pitch, I’d play the fingering as follows

String 1 - 2 1
String 2 - 3 2 1
String 3 - 3 1 2 3
String 1 - 1 or 2

With a sort of small micro shift to reach the major third on string 3

Not the only solution but this flows nicely and avoids putting the Gb and D on the same fret on adjacent strings, not that that’s a huge issue.

I also did it in guitar pitch. The same fingering works on strings 3 4 5. A bit shiftier down there.

It might also be hip to introduce more shifts - for instance using the 1st finger for the first two notes would be swinging.

String 1 - 1-1
String 2 - 3 2 1
String 3 - 3 1 2-2
String 1 - 1
That has a nice horn like flow

EDIT: I’m not habitually a three fingered player, but I’m practicing stuff that way atm. It feels good.

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Many thanks, as a totally four finger player, that's a lot of movement for me, but, like you mention in your post, using three fingers might give a more (sax) horn like sound.

[Christian Miller]

Many thanks, as a totally four finger player, that's a lot of movement for me, but, like you mention in your post, using three fingers might give a more (sax) horn like sound.

yeah -
but if it’s one thing I’ve learned over the years, it’s bop lines don’t work in positions.

You always need to consider the musical function of the half steps. How you finger things should depend on the musical logic and how you are hearing the phrase. Doesn’t matter how many fingers you use.

I don’t finger enclosures across the strings for example (I suppose I’m hearing Gb D D# E as an enclosure which may not actually be right depending on the way Trane phrased the original). So quite a bit of left hand movement becomes necessary working from musical considerations.

Positions might be a necessary evil for reading (I’m not sure about that tbh) but they are never IMO a good choice for bop lines.

(EDIT: it also imo makes them quite a bit easier to play.)

[Christian Miller]

Also I think I tend to finger in forward motion, which is that I separate the notes on beat 1 and 3 from the next upbeat by and large. I don’t think this is always appropriate, but it is something I was obsessed with about ten years ago and it’s become quite ingrained to do things this way. Ymmv. It’s a bit of a system.

[pamosmusic]

Half step chromaticism is difficult on guitar because it takes a lot of moving in and out of position even if you’re a four-finger position kind of player.

[Christian Miller]

One other thing is that maybe you don't get to choose your default approach, rather your 2D:4D ratio does.

I am however quite interested in playing music better. While it’s probably true many of the players we admire didn’t think that much about their techniques (often being a little deprecating of their self taught ways), I’m not sure their own playing journeys are necessarily that much use to us mortals because they are largely ‘naturals.’ They happened on an approach that worked by will of the gods etc.

So they couldn’t teach what they know, but we can still learn from them by playing close attention, and letting go of our own baggage and preconceptions.

Anyway, as pointed out in GuyBoden's post, there has to be some 4th finger involvement to facilitate some passages

I’m not sure if this is as much the case as one might assume. Have you explored alternatives thoroughly?

and it's good to explore the more "ethereal" side of things if you're a born groovester. It's all about balance, right?

Well groove and time has never been my natural strength, unlike speed and what rock guitarists call “technique”. I’m very typical of my cultural background, what can you say?

Over the past few years I’ve become very aware of issues with my articulation. I know some specific weaknesses in this, and for me I think a three fingered approach may be worth exploring on this basis. My note placement is much more even when I use three fingers. I also like how relaxed it looks. Sometimes I find it hard to watch myself playing. The pinky in particular.

Ultimately I think I’m getting a bit of resistance because people have learned a certain way and obviously don’t want to be told they are doing it wrong. And Im not saying they are.

I see it more as something someone could explore if they are so minded.

Otoh there might be a worry about wasting time. I don’t think time spent exploring different ways to play music is a waste of time.

Ultimately the details are as important as the measurable aspects. If you can make what you play already sound better, it’s time well spent.


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[pamosmusic]

I’m not sure if this is as much the case as one might assume. Have you explored alternatives thoroughly?

Yeah this is the cool thing about guitar, right? There are dozens of ways to execute a single short melody. It tracks that five or six of them are practical rather than just one or two.

[ccroft]

Another way to do fast chromatics is 'pick and slide' ala Mr Zucker's Martino riffs, or Django. I'm experimenting with that.

If we're talking about horn, a lot of the time those runs are very fast and pretty slurry. Like the second bar of Isotope. I've played around with 'pick & slide' for that and it actually works quite well. 3 fingers pulling off to index works too. So that's 3 diff ways that I've worked with just for that one line.

Might be worth mentioning that if you're good enough with the pick and 4 fingers you can still give shape to a line like that or Donna Lee if you have the control.

In Christian's EG of the 2 ways of playing a diatonic scale I wonder if it's possible he overdid the squareness of the 4 finger one to make the case more clearly. We probably all practised that way because that's what you're supposed to do. Later you learn how to shape it.

Not arguing for one or t'other. It's clear that 3 fingers kinda has that phrasing built in.

I agree that time spent exploring different ways to play music isn't a waste of time. It all adds up. EG: I'm not sure which approach to that Isotope line works best for me. I keep flipping back and forth. Might be tempo related.

Teaching is a diff thing though.

[Christian Miller]

In Christian's EG of the 2 ways of playing a diatonic scale I wonder if it's possible he overdid the squareness of the 4 finger one to make the case more clearly. We probably all practised that way because that's what you're supposed to do. Later you learn how to shape it.

Not consciously- which of course means nothing haha.

Not arguing for one or t'other. It's clear that 3 fingers kinda has that phrasing built in.

Yeah I think if my video has a clear goal, it’s to make the case for the validity and discuss what seem to me the strengths of this approach, which tbf very few are questioning here. Perhaps introduce their idea to those who haven’t considered it. But I have heard people get very dogmatic about technique elsewhere.

Teaching is a diff thing though.

My thoughts on this side of it are not well worked out. I do teach finger a fret basic classical left hand to kids the way I was taught (I tried 4th finger for D and G for a bit but haven’t had much luck with that).

I would consider teaching three fingers to an adult who could already play. From the ground up? I’m not sure I’d be comfortable. Maybe for electric only students. NOONE should be playing the minor pentatonic with the pinky haha


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