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I thought I could do it reliably and cleanly but as soon as I recorded myself I find out I mess up for up more often than accounted for.
This is my best take after dozens of attempts
Definitedly not smooth, particularly the ascending part. In fact it seems almost weirdly tripletly which probably stems from me practicing so much triplets recently.
Any advice on how to iron out the inconsistency (or rather.. consistently not perfect)? I feel like I'm almost there but somehow keep tripping up for longer multiple octaves
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01-16-2024 10:01 AM
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It’s fast but the rhythms don’t seem even. The bottom of the scale seems like it’s eighth note followed by paired sixteenth notes.
A lot of the time what sounds like “super fast” is just regular fast, plus clean and even.
How do you practice for speed?
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Yeah the rhythm thing is also an issue. I always use a metronome app but not when recording through my phone since the app will turn off when recording. I worked on speed bursts a long time ago and still maintain rasguedos practice for both of my hands. I do have anxiety when string crossing though particularly forward.. like moving my right arm alongside my hand seems unintuitive when I think about it
Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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I don’t know … I’m not super fast, and to the extent I am, it’s because I use a lot of left hand slurs. But when I work on pure speed stuff, I go to mind numbingly slow tempos and try to stay ultra relaxed, I try to do a lot of dotted rhythms, and then I do a fair number of double time bursts. With the double time bursts, I try never to do more than one burst in a row for every four or five times I get it slow and perfect. Originally Posted by jazznylon
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I see. When I practice slow back then I used to do staccato a lot kind of like conditioning my fingers to always be ready. So in a way I'm playing slow but the movement is fast. At a certain tempo the staccato tends to disappear. I heard the idea of relaxing everytime one makes a movement so I'm guessing one finger relaxes while the other gets prepared on the string. I might as well look into that more when I practice slow Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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Ah like the i finger strikes the string and then the m immediately snaps into place on that string? Originally Posted by jazznylon
Thats the ole “preparatory stroke” … or that’s what Aaron Shearer called it anyway.
I guess another question is “why” … why are you doing this particular practice? What do you want to use the speed for and why are these three octave scales the best way to get there?
(not saying they aren’t … just saying it’s an important question when you’re investing time.)
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This may be of interest to you. Not sure if this is something just anyone can do though. I sure can't. Start this around the 7-minute mark to see him do the fast tremolo style picking. He describes it as being like a bass player technique.
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Yep. Exactly! Originally Posted by pamosmusic
As for why.. why not?
Admittedly I wasn't really aiming for this kind of practice today I wanted to make a thread about accents and how fast one can reliably use them as compared to non-accenting. Just to discuss if theres an actual lower speed threshold particularly for guitar... I was practicing the accents but seems impossible to do them consistentedly on much faster speeds. So when it came to making a comparison video well... you know the story
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Wow incredible! I would like to play like that someday Originally Posted by fep
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oooooo spicy. I like that. Originally Posted by djg
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Looks like I'm in for the time of my life Originally Posted by djg
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Well … the why not would be two-fold. Originally Posted by jazznylon
Yep. Exactly!
As for why.. why not? Admittedly I wasn't really aiming for this kind of practice today I wanted to make a thread about accents and how fast one can reliably use them as compared to non-accenting. Just to discuss if theres an actual lower speed threshold particularly for guitar... I was practicing the accents but seems impossible to do them consistentedly on much faster speeds. So when it came to making a comparison video well... you know the story
First, when you practice a scale straight up and down, you’re practicing a very narrow set of technical parameters. If there are no finger barres then you never play them … if there are no half step chromatics (which are difficult in position-oriented guitar, though not sure with your tuning), then you won’t be working on them … your string crossings always happen on the same finger.
In order to get enough variation in the scales as they are, you’ll end up sinking lots of time into them and still be just learning a scale run. If the goal is to be able to improvise lines at that tempo, then you might be better served by learning lines in that scale position and working on the tempo.
The second thing, and maybe what DJG is alluding to also, is that practicing for speed is a good way to get sloppy. I think you have to push the tempo and can’t just work up incrementally without hitting a wall. But that’s also a pretty tough thing to do and requires a lot of discipline. Once you play a line twice with a mistake, you’re honestly kind of practicing those mistakes in. So it can be really really tough to spend a lot of time pushing speed without kind of working counter to your goal of good technique
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It is, at least for me, and I'm not even trying to be close to your speed. Originally Posted by jazznylon
Just keep at it. My former teacher always let beginners start with finger rest strokes but I was introduced to them much later. I've worked them into my "open strings only" first warm-up routine of the day, in patterns that I also play with free strokes. I aim for regularity and perfect control regardless of speed, and I think it's getting better little by little. The classical alternate flicking of 2 let alone 3 fingers has always been annoyingly difficult for me btw, and often I'll just use p-i for faster runs ... travis picking to the rescue
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I’m not a fast player so I’ve been working on Hank Mobley and Bud Powell double time licks. Playing actual vocabulary and working up the tempo is pretty enlightening … i can play double time stuff in bursts at maybe 180 or 190 but it’s boring and it’s the same stuff every time and it’s mostly scalar (and not that clean and sort of sucks). Taking the actual vocabulary up to tempo and I start hitting walls with 16ths at 125 or 130 maybe a bit higher on something that sits well on guitar.
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Yeah I see what you mean. If I keep making mistakes then I'm just building bad habits. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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It's a good idea to define "fast". There is a certain barrier after which lines start sounding different. I'd say that's around 110-120 Bpm 16th notes (or 220-240 8th notes) for me. Does everyone hear speed this way?
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But, paradoxically, you can only discover those bad habits exist - and thus that you must work on them - through playing at higher speeds. Originally Posted by jazznylon
You have to spend at least some time at a higher tempo - on the edge of what you're capable of - if you're to build technique, I think. For plectrum technique at least, the movements you make at a higher speed might be quite different to the ones you make at slower or middle tempi. So to be able to play fast, you have to practice fast, and work at playing something clean and fast.
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IMHO you need to do both. The thing with rest strokes is that they carry their name rather well: the finger is supposed to rest on that adjacent string, no matter how short that can be. IOW, you need to practice to allow it to relax, and I don't see how you can do that other than practising at a very slow tempo. Not my invention btw, I got this from one of the technical videos by Tariq WhatsHisName. I don't often watch classical technique videos but this one I remember; I can't be the only one who tends to cramp up when playing at or just over the limits of my speed capabilities. And somehow that happens in a worse manner with long runs of rest strokes (think turning a tremolo into a tremor!). Originally Posted by James W
Note that slow tempo doesn't have to mean that all your movements are in slow-motion too. Each note duration could be as short as it is at-tempo, and your movements too. An old violinist trick would be to slow down the tempo of a tricky passage but play each note 3 or sometimes even 6 times. The left hand gets the longer preparation time of the slower tempo but is forced to execute movements at about the target speed, idem for the right hand (and the bowing direction also doesn't change thx to the triplets).
(Maybe this trick is known among flatpickers too?)
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I always loved the dotted rhythms for an in between for fast and slow … so like … dotted 8th 16th or 16th dotted 8th … so that one motion gets more of a break and one motion is super quick. It’s a little easier to stay relaxed when that’s the way it’s going
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I find that working on accents I can reliably do eight notes for 200 bpm (accenting every 4 notes). However playing at the 11th and 12th position things gets screwy so I have to lower it to 100 bpm 8th notes there for more consistent results. Its not straight up and down the scale but rather in groups of 123, 234, etc.
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That's eight notes per second which is about where the technique (effort to the fingers and their response) requires consideration of physical dynamics (force, mass, acceleration, inertia, momentum). Fast technique is different than slow technique, and eight notes per second is about where the transition occurs (and why this is a common upper limit for guitarists). Originally Posted by Tal_175
This is in addition to modifications to that over which you have control - some mechanically fade out with increasing speed, some "go deaf" if speed surpass ability to hear what's played (no quality control).
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Playing rest stroke fast [whatever you conceive as fast] Is always going to have a ceiling for each of us.
Two thoughts occur to me [as a past classical guitarist up to concert/recording level]
Try approaching your speed playing as a flamenco would. They call it picado, but it's still a rest stroke...do some serious research
into the top guys! Paco de Lucia leaps to mind! You may learn much.
Another approach: why be so fixated on picking every note? What about using slurs [ligados], slides and bends?
I mention this because even the baddest plectrists around, and of course those not still with us, do not
strike every note with the pick. Many of the modern jazz guitar players use other forms of articulation, just as trumpet players
in particular do. - Avoids one dimensional type music - plus there's the oft repeated advice to find your way to play.
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+1 Originally Posted by Moonray
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Another old trick to work on playing consistently: vary the rythm voluntarily Originally Posted by pamosmusic
Originally Posted by Moonray
Ah, but there's a difference between making music and working on your technical portfolio for making music! But now you have me wondering ... is this the reason why (improvised) jazz so often seems to be playing scales?
(But thanks for making me realise this is probably what someone like Jonathan Stout does when he plays these fast slurs that look like the video can't keep up ... funny thing is that I'm used to being able to hear the difference between slurs and legato ...)
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True … but ask any instrument but guitar what their technique work looks like and you probably won’t hear a word about speed. Originally Posted by RJVB
Horn players work on articulation, articulation, articulation.
If you don’t have a command of that stuff, then you probably won’t sound good at tempo, no matter how clean and fast you’re playing.
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