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When I'm playing, I find it easier to play in the same position, if the notes are available there, even though I know the notes are available by moving to another position.
I'm probably lazy, but I see players jumping to lots of positions, when the notes are available in their current position.
Maybe this is because, some strings sound better than others.
Maybe this is because, some fretboard positions sound better than others.
Maybe this is because, they feel more comfortable in some positions than others.
Who knows why? but if it sounds good, it is good.
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11-19-2023 08:53 AM
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Who knows why? Well, if you want to play for example a sequence, and keep the same picking pattern then moving laterally - that is, changing position - is what you might want to do, rather than staying in the same position which is going to end up with a picking pattern with a changing number of notes per string, meaning your picking has to adjust to that. This is all assuming you're picking whatever you want to play, and is only one reason for why someone might choose to change position...
Originally Posted by GuyBoden
When I'm playing, I find it easier to play in the same position, if the notes are available there, even though I know the notes are available by moving to another position.
I'm probably lazy, but I see players jumping to lots of positions, when the notes are available in their current position.
Maybe this is because, some strings sound better than others.
Maybe this is because, some fretboard positions sound better than others.
Maybe this is because, they feel more comfortable in some positions than others.
Who knows why? but if it sounds good, it is good.
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I mean this is fairly standard though right? It’s easier to stay in one position than to move. But there are things you can’t play in every position. Take the first bar of Donna Lee. You probably need to have that in a fingering where G and Ab are on the same string. If they aren’t, then you’re going to have a hard time picking those triplets across strings. Or an arpeggio passage that needs to be swept in a triplet or something. You can always find the notes in every position, but you can’t always find the articulation.
I kind of think it’s good practice to try to get the same sound, or close to it, in every position, but that’s a technique exercise. Practically speaking, that’s not how it works.
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Teaching all levels of guitar there are a few golden rules that seem to be universal . Originally Posted by GuyBoden
When I'm playing, I find it easier to play in the same position, if the notes are available there, even though I know the notes are available by moving to another position.
I'm probably lazy, but I see players jumping to lots of positions, when the notes are available in their current position.
Maybe this is because, some strings sound better than others.
Maybe this is because, some fretboard positions sound better than others.
Maybe this is because, they feel more comfortable in some positions than others.
Who knows why? but if it sounds good, it is good.
One is - if you are good at one thing and not so good at something else practice the thing you are not good at. This is good conventional advice and leads to efficient use of practice time.
HOWEVER - the apparently contradictory position (but maybe not?) is also made that players go really deep into the thing they are good at. That way you go get specialists with a very unique approach.
for instance, if Allan Holdsworth had been better at picking he wouldn’t have been Allan.
Also his sense of positionality (for want of a real word) is really unique
That’s probably not much help.
fwiw I think positional playing can be limiting, and that it is much easier to play for example, bebop, non-positionally (it really helps phrasing for one thing) but I’m not a positional player on one hand so I would say that, and on the other there exists Adam Rogers who has one of the most legit left hands in jazz…. So, NFI..
I do think some people get a bit bent out of shape trying to beat the instrument when the secret is to work with it…
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Range is another issue. If you are in the 5th position, and you want a high Eb, it will usually sound better if at some stage you smoothly shift position and start the phrase that will contain that high Eb in the 8th - 11th position.
Having said that, if you can sound good within a limited range (avoid hitting the position's top note too many times!), then it's perfectly fine IMO. I also notice many novice to intermediate players choosing to move all over the neck when they probably don't really need to for the lines they are playing. It's almost as though they think it may look more impressive!
Sure, for the 3 fingered guys, they really need to shift often, but you can get a lot of mileage with 4 fingers in a single positions with the occasional moving a fret or 2 to either side to accomodate your chromatics etc.
If you look at sax or trumpet players, who often sound more impressive than guitarists, they're stuck with essentially the one position! They're certainly not trying to impress you with finger movement!
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You don't move to another position because the notes are available there, you move because the tune or your improv demands it. Originally Posted by GuyBoden
Generally speaking :-)
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I believe we've been here before Originally Posted by Christian Miller
but I'm not sure what you say here is correct - that Allan was a failed picker, forced to cultivate his legato of necessity. Maybe he just preferred the sound of legato?
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only because you’ve practiced staying on one spot. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
I used to teach lesson #1 as ‘let’s play seven nation army with one finger on one string’. You can do that with anyone practically…
The main difference is between moving your fingers and moving your arm.
Julian Lage has a thing where he points out the mental block guitar players get about quite small physical movements… shifting from the 5th to 13th position isn’t much of a physical movement for the arm to make - but we think about the hand
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The tone is different at different places on the neck. Notes played nearer the 12th fret sound different to me than notes played nearer the nut, or even in the center of the neck. The timbre is different. And some lines are easier to play in one position than another.
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Im not sure this is true. Or, rather, I totally buy what you attribute to Julian without buying what you say above. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
I mean … having your hand in one place with sort of “position” fingerings and you can play with your eyes closed. But moving positions with your eyes closed is pretty tough actually, even for a pretty good guitarist. I usually teach folks to play a pentatonic or whatever in position, and then get them moving the second they have a second pattern to move to. It’s something people should be able to do with relative ease and it’s necessary to be able to do, but I don’t think it’s just a mental hang-up and that’s it’s harder *only* because people haven’t practiced it.
Honestly, I liken it to crossing strings with a pick. It’s a small technical challenge that builds up and becomes an issue because people don’t practice it well.
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Yes, you can't try to sound like a sax on guitar by picking every note, that was the sound AH wanted. Originally Posted by James W
I believe we've been here before but I'm not sure what you say here is correct - that Allan was a failed picker, forced to cultivate his legato of necessity. Maybe he just preferred the sound of legato?
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Yes, all true. Strings, neck positions and different guitars have different "timbre", that's the correct word thanks. Originally Posted by sgosnell
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I've watched some of your videos, lots of arm movement, that's your style, not really strict positional playing. You might have small fast hands, it works very well for you. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
I like this AH player.
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I should also clarify that I have also watched a lot of Christians videos and don’t think I move much less than he does. Maybe a little? But the position player or not position player is probably a bit of a false dichotomy. Any good player is doing lots of both. Probably a mental distinction more than anything else … I do just organize things around positions in my head. Though I do loooooaaads of practicing around string restrictions and stuff. And Christian, for example, has done some videos where he goes through diatonic arpeggios or whatever and they are “in position” even if he’s not really thinking that way in the wild. Originally Posted by GuyBoden
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It's ok to limit oneself, from time to time, omitting notes that aren't available unless you stretch a finger out of position. Or, say, something like for instance: "let's see what sounds/sonorities come up if I play any given scale but just two notes per string within the space of three frets, without stretching a finger out of position and skipping the scale-notes that aren't available within that frame", then carry on that scale to the next set of three frets up (or down) the neck, again, omitting the scale degrees that aren't available within that frame etc. so that scale is covered all along the neck but the intervals are "tossed around" making it less obvious and perhaps more interesting (and easy to play, too!... (just an idea/example). Originally Posted by GuyBoden
afterall pentatonics (or fewer note-cells) are/can be nice, I think, although they do "lack" certain scale degrees...Last edited by frabarmus; 11-19-2023 at 11:13 AM.
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Here’s another point. I think position playing is important because it’s a good way to go through the entire neck and systematically find all the sort of modular fingerings for a certain passage. If you go through every position and learn the first bar of Au Privave or something, then you’ve got a fingering for it no matter where you end up.
Guitar players tend to forget that you need a fingering not just at every “F” on the fingerboard, but also no matter what finger lands on that F.
You’ve also forced yourself to, say, use the fourth finger when you might not otherwise.
You can get a parallel (though still different) effect by practicing across pairs or trios of strings. Though it wouldn’t be quite so complete or practical by my estimation.
Anyway … creative range restrictions are pretty doggone important if you want to know the neck well.
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I think some people move around because they learned all the positions and want to use it.
I move positions in blues a lot to get new ideas and also I think it’s better for the show part. Riding thirds up the neck looks more dynamic than playing them in position.
I’m not as comfortable in most GASB changes to be that free. But I’ll get there, one at a time…
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I move up because that's where the high notes are :-)
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I only move, when I run out of notes :-) Originally Posted by ragman1
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And you need to see it coming before you reach that point.
Personally, I play where it's comfortable. I could play a lot of stuff higher up the neck because the neck, technically at least, allows it. But it wouldn't feel comfortable or 'right'. So I move up when I need to, and then down again when I don't need to be up there any more.
Pentatonics, especially blues sounds, are good for that, you can chase down easily. Some players literally play single notes down all on one string but that's something I never got into.
The more you play tunes that have a high bit in them the easier it'll get. And it'll be interesting to see what tunes they come up with on your other thread :-)
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I think there are a lot of factors to consider such that I don't know that you can generalize one way or another.
What you're playing and how you play it are intrinsically linked. There's certain vocabulary that can only, or at least only practically be played a certain way. If you want to play a 7th arpeggio in three octaves, you have to position shift. If you want to play a one octave triad arpeggio, in any practical scenario it's unlikely you would position shift. So while you can maybe have general rules about how you conceptualize the fretboard, a guitarist needs to be able to do both, obviously.
There's also the question of preferred technique that you're using. A strict alternate picker, a strict economy picker, and a legato/hammer on and pull off player will probably approach the same line very differently. As a pretty strict economy picker, my pet project is arranging lines to be most conducive to what comes easy to my right hand, which often requires some unconvetional fingerings, but I find that trade off worthwhile for me. Someone who is legato focused on mixes legato in to navigate string changes may not feel the need to change positions as much as my economy approach leads me to.
I think the answer is personal to each player to a degree. One should learn how to do both so that it's not a limitation, but from there let the vocabulary and what comes naturally technically guide their approach.
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I play mostly legato, pick with fingers only, on a 7 string, so with 7 string I have a few more notes in each position than 6 string. That's maybe some reasons why I don't move position as much as others. Originally Posted by BreckerFan
My playing style creates advantages and limitations, but I agree with your comment "I think the answer is personal to each player to a degree."
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Practical, promotional, and stagecraft reasons for shifting in performance:
- intra-song visible signaling
- showmanship for audience interest
- looking sharp for photography or videos
- finishing a tune or set with a broken string
- authenticity to how a particular guitarist did it
- shifting to a cooler less gummy region of the finger board
- disguising what you're doing to conceal it from observing guitarists
- disclosing more readily what you're doing for benefit of the bass player
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I don't think there's a general answer.
It depends on a large number of considerations. I won't go into them all, but I'll mention,
1. It depends on your picking style. Alternate pickers may have to move more than sweep pickers.
2. Depends on the passage. The range of notes, which notes, whether they lay well on the instrument, etc.
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To me, position playing is just the beginning. Finding ways to break out of that has been what I have been working on for the last few years.
Reasons to look for other avenues:
-The tonality is better on another string. As an example, maybe the tone of the 6 and 5 string way up the neck aren’t to your liking. Or a melody sounds better if it stays on one string.
-To give your right hand picking style an advantage
- To move a parallel shape up or down the neck, for instance chromatically
-To get to a higher or lower note
I read once that Peter Bernstein said he was glad his main teacher encouraged him to learn to play scales up one string. I really wish I had worked on that when I was younger, when I really learned position playing, which to me now seems limiting.
One technique of this type that I am working on is sliding the first finger down a note to get out of a position. I’m sure there are many others.
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