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My 2¢.
Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
I think that the thumb should be in its "natural" position, in relation to your hand, when touching the back of the neck. Let your left hand drop to to your side. Relax. Give it a moment. Look down at your hand and notice where your thumb is. Bring your hand up without moving your thumb. Insert guitar neck between thumb and fingers. No move to the right or left, Just where it naturally is. If you cock your thumb too far to the right or left you'll introduce tension into your hand. It's just like picking. The more relaxed your hand is, the more efficiently it will move.
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07-16-2014 01:22 AM
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Umberto has an extremely relaxed left hand and in this clip doesn't bother at all with the thumb in the middle of the neck routine.
Im sure that if he was playing certain chords that his thumb would go behind.
But this is the position (in the video) that I prefer to use. With the hand on an angle which allows a great stretch up the board and quite easy to stretch down as well.
This is also a great way to mute with the left hand. Your fingers are literally laying across the strings and you can use them to cover open strings or leave one on the string you just played. Much more ergonomic than having your hand around and sitting up. I find that old method takes your other fingers off the string. I'd rather have them laying there either muting or ready to play. This is mainly for soloing. Playing chord sequences would be different.
Interesting to watch a recent video by Tuck Andres where he mentioned that he was experimenting with these unorthodox methods of the left hand. Just let it sit comfortably on an angle. Also not using one fret per finger but doing large movements with the first 2 fingers. Also using the pinky only if you have to.
I really don't think there are any hard and fast rules. Clearly there are times when you have to put your thumb behind the neck. But it's not a rule. In fact for certain styles it's probably not the best way to go.
Watch where Umberto's thumb is and how far he can stretch. Could be be more relaxed? I've seen George Benson playing with this grip as well.
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Well, my thumb has been "hitch hiking" for a long time now. That is natural for me. I could leave it like that. Originally Posted by henryrobinett
But it runs deep with me to think, "I could be wrong."
So I nudge myself to try things to see if they might make an improvement. (It's like diet, you know? If you eat a bad diet or fall out of shape, that feels natural; conversely, starting to exercise and eat right takes much effort; it's only after you've done it for awhile that you realize, "man, this is so much better!" Then you think, "what ELSE might be so much better?")
If you saw my room, you would never think I was "anal" about anything. I'm an "everything out" type. (Or in plain English, a slob.) My idea of order is 'everything spread out so I can see it, and if some topples into a heap on the floor, well, as long as I know where it is....' I'm not looking for the perfect way or the textbook way or what four-out-of-five academics recommend. I'm more like a kid with toy thinking, "Hey, what if I put this over there? What would that do?"
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That looks familiar! Not that I play as well, but the thumb being like that is what I tend to do. It's well to the left of the index much of the time. As I said (or meant to say if I didn't), I never thought much about this and chanced upon something yesterday suggesting the thumb be placed between the 2nd and 3rd fingers (-as a default.) I thought, "Whoa, that's different." Originally Posted by Philco
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Some day I shall start a thread on the meanings of "natural"! Originally Posted by monk
In that experiment, my thumb is pointing to the left of my index. But if you follow that out, if I picked up a guitar in that posture, the thumb would not be behind the neck but on the same side as the fingers. (Think about pressing your opened palm against a window pane or a door.) Sometimes, just goofing off, I have played without placing my thumb against the neck anywhere.
I think one thing that happens when one "hitch hikes" is that the palm (where the fingers join it) grips the underside of the neck. I have heard Reg say it is important to have some space between the neck and that part of the palm. (I think I heard Reg say that; I may have misunderstood him or may be recalling this incorrectly.) Perhaps I should PM about this but I'm running late....
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Like many of you, I started learning guitar with a couple of years studying classical guitar. My thumb is kind of like a fulcrum and this position allows me to make up for a very short pinky. I have a good reach for my left hand now and don't use my thumb for playing chords. I don't consciously avoid using my thumb but it seems very natural and relaxed to me. Actually, I prefer playing everything fingerstyle but for me, the pick is needed for playing more variety and better dynamic control of lead lines.
wiz
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years of playing with poor mechanics (plus sports, manual labor and etc) created real problems for me-- nerve problems, tendonitis, etc.
ive had to really work on my mechanics and go back to classical training to help. it's made a huge difference for me. the classical folks are far more rigorous about mechanics, and some of that's been helpful for me. i ended up getting one of those support pillows-- works fine for my archtops and my tele, too.
kanengiser has a series of vids that i found helpful, especially the first two. there's stacks of others by various folks.
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Thanks for posting those. Interesting. I don't think I've ever held a classical guitar, much less worked on classical technique. Fascinating stuff. Originally Posted by klk
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Hey Mark... yes space between the neck and your palm and base of fingers. There is what I call My default hand position, my natural position I start with. Once you get to a point where you have good technique... whatever we want to call that.
I think of good technique as me being able to play "whatever".... and play that "whatever" at any tempo without my technique or lack of technique getting in the way. Not just being able to play what I've played a million times before at any tempo etc...
Just as Philco's post of Umberto playing... once you have good technique, you can become relaxed and almost perform with bad technique... because you know how to get the music out.... personally sometimes I use bad technique to help my expression, help create the sound of more feeling. I did notice how Umberto's feel really changed when he double timed, lost that cool feel he had at slower tempo...
It's really pretty simple... you need to know how your hand works physically...at least make a choice and then train yourself to the point where that choice becomes your default, you perform with that choice of left hand position and usage. You adapt that left hand position and usage all over the fretboard, usually with a fingering system. Put in the required time, organized time. There are always choices to be made, and usually many of those will work, But you do need to make a choice.
Not making a choice is also a choice... with time your going to develop a technique.
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That's a good definition. I'll give you an example of something that works better (-for me) when I change my thumb position from my default (-and by 'default' I don't mean something I worked out and developed but rather a habit I developed without intent), which I will call 'thumb to the left of the index finger' to 'thumb to the right of it.' Originally Posted by Reg
Herb Ellis puts chromatic lines into his playing (-yeah, I know, who doesn't?). One line he uses, in Bb, is to shift from the area around the sixth fret (index) to the next 'shape' up, the "D" shape with the Bb on the B string at the 11th fret. He will start chromatic ascent (-all this on the high E string) at the 8th fret, C, then Db, also played with the first finger, then D with the first finger, then Eb with the 2nd, E with the 3rd, and F with the pinky. It's not a hard line to play whichever way you do it, but I know (now) that if my thumb is to the right on the index, that line is easier to play because of the way my hand hovers over the strings. (When my thumb is to the left of the index, the upper part of my hand (fingers 3 and 4) seem to be tilted slightly away from the neck; when my thumb is to the right of the index, those fingers seem to be a little closer to the neck. They also seem to remain closer to the neck after fretting a note. There are times when this is a real advantage and I want make sure I take that advantage!
So that's something I need to have available when I need it.
Thanks for the advice! I'll work on that space between the neck and the palm/ base of my fingers. It's always something....
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That's what I do. Originally Posted by elixzer
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Yesterday while searching YouTube for videos of "Spider" exercises I found one by a female classical guitarist who used the phrase "knuckles parallel" (meaning, the knuckles of the left, or fretting, hand.) I had not heard that phrase before. Then she said, "Not this," and demonstrated a tilted hand with knuckles, well, non-parallel and I realized, "that's me!"
Two things first. One, I am not a classical guitarist. Two, I do not wish to become one. That said, when I think about this while playing, and also about keeping my thumb "to the right of my index finger" (-as a default position) my fingers seem to stay closer to the guitar and the fingering seems smoother.
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no need to do what classical technique teaches. invent a rounder wheel.
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That's a good point. But I don't think starting with parallel knuckles would be bad for a jazz player, would it? Originally Posted by randalljazz
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sorry, mark. temporary fall from benevolent zone...mild sarcasm...
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As I've heard so many times including GIT... There are no rules only suggestions to try, in the end do what works for you. All our hands are different so we have find what works for us.
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I see the point of this. I started out that way. (I had maybe a half-dozen lessons as a kid in elementary school-- C, D, G chords, that's all I remember from it--and no other lessons until I was around 20. I'm highly self-motivated but I am also human and realize I can be wrong. My mature(r) self would now say to my younger self: "it won't hurt you to know what people who are already good at this have to say about making a good beginning." Originally Posted by docbop
Now, when it came to writing songs, I didn't ask for help. (It didn't occur to me that this might be something another person could help one with---to me, it felt like it would be asking for help with your homework, at which point it is no longer YOUR homework. In retrospect, I give myself props for writing a lot of songs as a kid, even though nearly every one was crap. It paved the way for what I've done since.)
The main problem with 'do what works for you' is that until one is advanced, one doesn't really know what's working and what's 'just what I'm used to.' (My sloppy picking technique wasn't a problem when I was playing rock; it became a problem when I wanted to play fast bop heads.)
But in any case, I am no longer a beginner and cannot go back to childhood and start over. I'm trying to improve where I can, which means looking at things I'm NOT used to doing. (I'm already used to doing what I'm used to doing, and the results don't suit me.) Hence the past few years of obsessing over picking and working so hard to make real headway. I'm finally getting somewhere with Benson picking and, "for this relief, much thanks," as the saying goes.
I know no one else can do it for me. But if the advice of one person cannot be of great benefit to another, what are we all doing here???
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