Speed limit

[Christian Miller]

Paul Gilbert is an incredible technician. He has a bunch of sequential exercises I practice every day.
He even played Brubeck's Blue Rondo a la Turk once. He started playing Misty once at a seminar, and the neanderthals started booing him!

Gilbert is a dude. I think he just likes music and songs.

[Christian Miller]

The true speed limit is quality control - not how fast you can play, but how fast do you hear? As soon as you play faster than you can hear, your quality control drops to zero... you might as well be stone deaf.

Some styles of music permit a margin of "deafness of quality control" for dramatic, or theatrical, or ironic effect.

I’ve always felt that about Jimmy page’s break on heartbreaker. We know page could play much cleaner than that but he chose to get some raw edges on the record

Despite how intricate a lot of the songs were some of the zeppelin stuff seems like a conscious attempt to get out the studio musician mind set… get more rock and roll on the records. I suppose that also goes for the creative production of those records.

he said he wrote stairway as a slow acceleration as a response to the iron law that you shouldn’t speed up when he was working as a session musician. Let the music build energy and speed.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

The true speed limit is quality control

I think that’s part of it. But there’s quality of design and quality of conformance to design. If your design is weak, executing it perfectly will not make it better. And if your design is great but conformance to it is weak, your product will not be as good as it should be.

Great technique cannot improve poorly “written” solos and poor technique will degrade even the most beautiful and creative ideas. There’s one speed limit on our minds and another on our hands. The two have to be well matched for a smooth ride.

If your ideas are too complex for you to play, you can either simplify them or work on technique. But not everyone can be a technical whiz or a speed demon. That doesn’t mean that we all can't play interesting music and play it well.

[pamosmusic]

If your ideas are too complex for you to play, you can either simplify them or work on technique.

I think this is maybe pretty rare in improvisation.

Maybe this is just me, but I usually feel like the connection between technique and ideas is pretty hard to break. On the margins I certainly go for things I can’t quite execute, but I don’t know if a person is ever really conceiving of phrases and ideas in the moment that are beyond their technique.

I guess a summary is that I think technique limits the ear quite a bit.

[pauln]

...I don’t know if a person is ever really conceiving of phrases and ideas in the moment that are beyond their technique.

I guess a summary is that I think technique limits the ear quite a bit.

Maybe "create" is a better word with respect to improvisation. Conceive is a little confusing because it can mean to form/develop in the mind, but also to apprehend mentally. The first suggests creating, the second grasping. You are using the first definition with respect to improvisation, but when we listen to music, the second definition applies, even if what we hear exceeds our technique. (Even with "create" I'm still not sure I agree with your summary)

[pamosmusic]

(Even with "create" I'm still not sure I agree with your summary)

To be fair, I’m only about 80% sure I do.

And I am talking about improvising. Obviously one could write down ideas that are beyond the technique. But improvising is different. I don’t really think people go for ideas that are that far beyond their technique.

To Brecker’s point … I spend a lot of time sort of assembling licks from components I know. Sort of a middle ground between writing them and improvising them at speed. To sort of bridge that gap.

[Reg]

yea... you just need chops to play jazz. You can kid yourself etc...

It's not just getting the notes out.... you need to be able to phrase and most of that comes from being able to SUBDIVIDE.

Anyone can practice something and eventually be able to perform , or play it. But typically playing jazz or in a jazz style is about.... being able to perform whatever your playing.... like now, the first time. There are no lets try it again.

And like I've been saying forever... unless your one of the monsters, big dogs etc... your going to spend most of your time comping .... creating those great feels, grooves whatever you want to call what most musicians do playing gigs.
And you need those chops to be able to play and create those feels in different styles and tempos etc...

I'm not saying not being able to play fast or having chops is wrong.... just limiting as to what you can play.

Chops or speed is just one of many technical skills that should be part of practice and learning routines.

[John A.]

If you can’t play 1/8’s 1/16’s and other sub-divisions on and off the beat while actually knowing what you’re playing and sounding good, maybe you shouldn’t pontificate about technique, and maybe you should listen to the 3 or 4 people posting here who can.

[John A.]

I think this is maybe pretty rare in improvisation.

Maybe this is just me, but I usually feel like the connection between technique and ideas is pretty hard to break. On the margins I certainly go for things I can’t quite execute, but I don’t know if a person is ever really conceiving of phrases and ideas in the moment that are beyond their technique.

I guess a summary is that I think technique limits the ear quite a bit.

I think some of the greats do actually reach for things they can’t completely grasp. E.g., that’s the way the “sloppiness” of Tal Farlow or Barney Kessel sometimes strikes me. Others have also initially used hammer-on/pull-off/slur techniques as workarounds, which then evolved into unique personalities on the instrument (Wes, Sco,and Metheny come to mind). But i don’t think that applies to most of the rest of us who are limited by both chops and ideas.

[Oscar67]

Being able to play faster tempos is just another tool in the toolbox. In and by itself, speed is meaningless. But so is knowing a thousand chords. Proper technique and training will help to achieve the personal upper speed limit. I’m glad to hear some of you have broken through your ceilings.

[pamosmusic]

I think some of the greats do actually reach for things that can’t completely grasp. E.g., that’s the way the “sloppiness” of Tal Farlow or Barney Kessel sometimes strikes me. Others have also initially used hammer-on/pull-off/slur techniques as workarounds, which then evolved into unique personalities on the instrument (Wes, Sco,and Metheny come to mind). But i don’t think that applies to most of the rest of us who are limited by both chops and ideas.

Yeah that’s the margins though. I don’t think Coltrane often thinks of an idea in the moment and goes “shucks maybe next time.” Though he often reaches for something and misses.

For what it’s worth I kind of find it boring when folks don’t reach for that space just past the technique.

Maybe that’s part of what’s so difficult about improvising. The ideas you have at your disposal in the moment are limited by your technique but if you aren’t pushing out to the edges of those limits it can be a bit dull.

And for what it’s worth also … the limits of those techniques are not always speed. Clifford brown is always reaching for stuff … a little interval skip after a turn that he cracks the first time. That kind of thing.

[pingu]

Hi Reg,
were you always fast ?
did you work on it conciously

I like your speed , you play phrases and ideas properly ,
not just a great schmeer
of notes ….

mentioning no names

[Peter C]

Being self-taught an' all, I had never heard the term subdivisions until I started reading this forum. I suppose I've been doing that as a player for years without knowing that it had a name. You just play, or learn to play, what sounds cool, in any genre, no?

Anyway, found this kid on YT, for your enjoyment

[emanresu]

One time, I had accepted a "job" that I had no business taking part in - recording a fast rock solo for an important track.
Dunno why they asked me and why I agreed to it. But slowly started to panick and that helped. Played for a week just up and down the pentatonic
until it became a constant fast legato puddle of notes without stumbling. That was ok and we got the job done. Phew.

So. Don't worry or be sad. Become panicked!

But I dunno. Google for all kinds of speed and synchronizing tips. For a week. From all styles and instruments. Then analyze and test them.
Asking in a jazz forum about speed... hm, doesn't seem the ultimate place for this question.

[BreckerFan]

Hope I haven't been pontificating too much. Just sharing ideas I've used to get my great schmeer together. As always, feel free to disregard.

[Christian Miller]

Being self-taught an' all, I had never heard the term subdivisions until I started reading this forum. I suppose I've been doing that as a player for years without knowing that it had a name. You just play, or learn to play, what sounds cool, in any genre, no?

Anyway, found this kid on YT, for your enjoyment

subdivision is perfectly easy. All you have to do is learn to do this.

EDIT; I LOVE that Konnakol is considered way nerdy in Southern India…

[Jimmy Smith]

For what it’s worth I kind of find it boring when folks don’t reach for that space just past the technique.

Maybe that’s part of what’s so difficult about improvising. The ideas you have at your disposal in the moment are limited by your technique but if you aren’t pushing out to the edges of those limits it can be a bit dull.

I don't agree with that. Why would you have to by definition not have something you play be mastered technique wise for it it be entertaining or exciting? Work the shit out to where you have command of ideas you want to play that are exciting. My teacher here playing just friends. He's going to town playing exciting stuff because he has worked it out and mastered it. (He doesn't need a backing track to cook either.)

Maybe if you haven't worked your technique to where you can play any exciting stuff then it will by definition be boring. But that means you have to practice up some chops you have command of, not wing it by the seat of your pants.

[pamosmusic]

I don't agree with that. Why would you have to by definition not have something you play be mastered technique wise for it it be entertaining or exciting?

I mean that’s pretty obviously not what I said.

It’s just more interesting to me when people are playing out at the edges of stuff. When people are never getting out into that space, it can start sounding a little safe and a little predictable. Obviously technique is good and you don’t want to listen to someone who’s just a mess.

[Peter C]

That Konnakkol clip is way cool

This was my idea of subdivisions, and probably what Rush had in mind, too

[djg]

subdivision is perfectly easy. All you have to do is learn to do this.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

It’s just more interesting to me when people are playing out at the edges of stuff. When people are never getting out into that space, it can start sounding a little safe and a little predictable.

Yes! I’ve actually grown bored with my own playing over the last few months - it’s nothing new, it’s not exciting, and it lacks grace. So I’m trying hard to try less hard and just let it flow. But I have 2 weekly gigs, so I owe the audience and club owners a good show with a minimal dose of clams.

I think I’m coming out of this slump, but it sure woke me up. I haven’t felt this way about my playing for years - I was complacent and insufficiently self-critical.

[coyote-1]

Page, Rush… I was once slagged for referencing rock players on this jazz forum, and then I have to read folks claiming Jimmy Page was a paragon of technique?

Just kidding. Both Rush and Zep had some awesome stuff.

anyway, I think I posted in this thread once. But I’ll boil down my thoughts: first, bigger muscles are easier to control than smaller ones. So the foundation of building speed should reside mostly in larger muscles. The other component is relaxation. All your muscles should be relaxed as you practice your scales and arpeggios. All of them. Shoulders, core, arms, legs, neck, face. And the moment you are tightening up, regardless of the technique you’ve chosen, it’s time to back off a notch and just get very comfortable playing at your maximum relaxed speed.

[Jimmy Smith]

I mean that’s pretty obviously not what I said.

It’s just more interesting to me when people are playing out at the edges of stuff. When people are never getting out into that space, it can start sounding a little safe and a little predictable. Obviously technique is good and you don’t want to listen to someone who’s just a mess.

I see what you're saying but I still disagree. Think how under control Charlie Parker was and he blew everybody's minds. Yes, pushing it to the limit and succeeding does result in exciting music, but that's not the rule. It's just as possible to play within yourself and have it be good, you just have to work up stuff that is good regardless of how much aggression you throw at it.

[Jimmy Smith]

Being able to play faster tempos is just another tool in the toolbox. In and by itself, speed is meaningless.

NO! :P Rhythm is one of the most important parts of music. So being able to utilize fast rhythms does usually have a positive effect. That said, you obviously might think about being tasteful too. And there are great musicians who don't play fast. But personally I would never want to forego being able to use fast rhythms because I like the sound. And I also think it isn't accurate to say speed is meaningless.

[Jimmy Smith]

If you can’t play 1/8’s 1/16’s and other sub-divisions on and off the beat while actually knowing what you’re playing and sounding good, maybe you shouldn’t pontificate about technique, and maybe you should listen to the 3 or 4 people posting here who can.

32nds or gtfo. :P