Did Troy Grady prove there is a correct picking technique?

[pamosmusic]

Faster, faster, faster. We are all being judged by the standards of the shredders. I blame social media.

Ah yes. Yngwie Malmsteen. Product of the Instagram generation.

[m_d]

Ugh. Total misperception. What's advocated in this series never was speed for speed's sake. Some people are like they're starting at the 25th episode and assuming they know what's happened before. There's a lot there that's tongue-in-cheek and done in a spirit of fun and discovery. The result though is seriously high quality and ground-breaking. I would hope a jazz player doing such a series and would be able to demonstrate the same open-mindedness and feature - and be able to play themselves - examples in rock, latin music, bluegrass and other folk genres, other stringed instruments, etc. Surely they could, right ?

[Christian Miller]

Ah yes. Yngwie Malmsteen. Product of the Instagram generation.

I reckon he had the duck face for it

[m_d]

I reckon he had the duck face for it

Legend

[Peter C]

I just picked up my acoustic and played along with the video for shits and giggles for 5 minutes. OK, except my wrist did start aching after a while, lol. I'm not posting a quick and dirty phone video, not today, but I would.

I'm self-taught and have no idea what my pick technique/s is/are, so would anyone care to post a video demonstraing how this (reverse dart throw?) techinique has facilitated their musical goals?

PS There is no mention of previous episodes to this video, so it was taken at face value.

[Litterick]

Ah yes. Yngwie Malmsteen. Product of the Instagram generation.

Not him, but all the young nerds who broadcast direct from their bedrooms, demonstrating their dexterity but not any musicality.

[pamosmusic]

Not him, but all the young nerds who broadcast direct from their bedrooms, demonstrating their dexterity but not any musicality.

Im just saying that guitar players were infatuated with The Shred for about forty years before Instagram came along. Can’t blame social media for that one.

Yngwie used to dress up like he was auditioning for Amadeus and play shred-Bach in front of smoke machines and light shows. If that dude were 25 again, he’d be all over TikTok and loving it.

[bediles]

Not him, but all the young nerds who broadcast direct from their bedrooms, demonstrating their dexterity but not any musicality.

OK boomer

[BreckerFan]

Here's the thing tho, playing fast is cool. It's not the only thing and can be extremely unmusical, but when good musicians do it, it's great. Coltrane, McCoy, Brecker, Herbie, Kenny Garrett, Freddie Hubbard, etc etc all had/have the ability to play fast with good musical sensibilities, and it sounds great. I feel like some guitarists have this allergic reaction to shred. Which like fair, there's only so many times you can watch an Insta guitarist play the Paul Gilbert sixes lick. I find the idea of pursuing speed for its own sake uninteresting. But that doesn't mean it's not worthwhile to think about and work on technique of that helps you execute the musical ideas you're hearing. Picking fast on a single string isn't music, but it may be a tool you have to develop as a step towards executing fast musical ideas.

[Christian Miller]

Frankly many (usually younger) guitarist’s attitudes to speed (esp in the rock world) are a bit toxic. Either they don’t got it in which case they judge those that do as ‘lacking soul’ or they do in which case you have the opposite, and they judge slower but highly musical players as not being ‘advanced’. There was a lot of the BS when I was getting into it - maybe less so now? (Kids seem pretty open.)

It strikes me that most great musicians who happen to play the guitar have got over this either way.

A preoccupation with speed as opposed to relaxation, efficiency, accuracy of subdivision and an interest in performing music (rather than exercises) can actually really mess with a players technique. Speed is a by product of the above.

I like to think that a better pedagogy would make these issues go away, but I daresay that’s a bit naive haha

[PatrickWD]

[Litterick]

OK boomer

What on earth is that supposed to mean?

[Litterick]

Im just saying that guitar players were infatuated with The Shred for about forty years before Instagram came along. Can’t blame social media for that one.

Yngwie used to dress up like he was auditioning for Amadeus and play shred-Bach in front of smoke machines and light shows. If that dude were 25 again, he’d be all over TikTok and loving it.

Some guitarists, those who played metal or heavy rock, were keen on shredding. Most had other concerns. YouTube demonstration videos have made shredding and other displays of virtuosity very popular in recent years.

[m_d]

A preoccupation with speed as opposed to relaxation, efficiency, accuracy of subdivision and an interest in performing music (rather than exercises) can actually really mess with a players technique. Speed is a by product of the above.

I like to think that a better pedagogy would make these issues go away, but I daresay that’s a bit naive haha

Hmm, as I've been saying over and over, that pedagogy is already there: Troy Grady laid it all down.

[m_d]

As to "shredding": jazzers have been shredding since the 1920s. What would be the issue with that?

[pamosmusic]

Some guitarists, those who played metal or heavy rock, were keen on shredding. Most had other concerns. YouTube demonstration videos have made shredding and other displays of virtuosity very popular in recent years.

Yes. Amongst guitarists who play metal and “heavy rock.” And you can find just as many videos on how to learn fingerstyle and whatever else. Social media has made there be more of everything, but I’d wager the proportions are about the same.

Not sure what the difference is otherwise. Seems like a classic case of Kids These Days.

Guitarists are always infatuated with speed and technique. As are most people who play most instruments (or do most other things).

You’re welcome to argue otherwise, but anyone who had a subscription to any one of the host of guitar technique magazines in the 90s would know the only thing that changed is the medium (and the clothes, which I will grant you).

[pamosmusic]

Hmm, as I've been saying over and over, that pedagogy is already there: Troy Grady laid it all down.

Sounds like maybe he’s saying Grady is a big component of a pedagogy but the holistic thing isn’t really there. Which seems fair. It doesn’t really seem like he’s trying to be everything, to his credit. I have a knee-jerk reaction to stuff like this because people inevitably take the teaching and get speed-obsessed with it. So it always seems like it’s missing the context. But I was probably a little harsh in my earlier posts, because I don’t think he’s really claiming to offer the context. He’s just analyzing this one important aspect of technique that is usually kind of ignored and breaking it down in ways that would certainly be helpful to someone looking to make it part of something more holistic.

[James W]

Here's the thing tho, playing fast is cool. It's not the only thing and can be extremely unmusical, but when good musicians do it, it's great. Coltrane, McCoy, Brecker, Herbie, Kenny Garrett, Freddie Hubbard, etc etc all had/have the ability to play fast with good musical sensibilities, and it sounds great. I feel like some guitarists have this allergic reaction to shred. Which like fair, there's only so many times you can watch an Insta guitarist play the Paul Gilbert sixes lick. I find the idea of pursuing speed for its own sake uninteresting. But that doesn't mean it's not worthwhile to think about and work on technique of that helps you execute the musical ideas you're hearing. Picking fast on a single string isn't music, but it may be a tool you have to develop as a step towards executing fast musical ideas.

... all of which is pretty obvious, but it seems it bears repeating.

Going back to what Christian Miller said about shredding/Yngwie being a failure of pedagogy, I'm not sure that that's the case, because there has been plectrum/electric guitar virtuosos for as long as it's been around - I think it's more to do with the genre of rock music, where the likes of The Beatles showed that you don't necessarily need instrumental virtuosity to create great music. I think that that has had quite a big influence in the years since, not among every strand of rock music, but a fair few. And those rock guitarists who did have facility based their vocabulary usually from the blues, so when Yngwie came along, I'd imagine it was quite different.

[m_d]

Sounds like maybe he’s saying Grady is a big component of a pedagogy but the holistic thing isn’t really there. Which seems fair. It doesn’t really seem like he’s trying to be everything, to his credit. I have a knee-jerk reaction to stuff like this because people inevitably take the teaching and get speed-obsessed with it. So it always seems like it’s missing the context. But I was probably a little harsh in my earlier posts, because I don’t think he’s really claiming to offer the context. He’s just analyzing this one important aspect of technique that is usually kind of ignored and breaking it down in ways that would certainly be helpful to someone looking to make it part of something more holistic.

He's definitely not making any claims whatsoever to offer the context. That's up to each individual. As with everything else use in moderation, drink responsibly, etc.

[PatrickWD]

Nothing wrong with speed as long as it’s used in a musical way.

Not a fan of most shredders, but for instance Guthrie Govan often uses speed in a musical way.

Having the fast technique and not overusing it can be hard for many players though. I used to be much faster when I was younger, and I probably used it a bit too much sometimes.

[dasein]

The problem is unless you are lucky to have a Rodney Jones as a teacher it may in fact be a matter of luck if you find a solution.

If you ever have the opportunity to study or take a lesson with Rodney Jones, pull the trigger and don't think twice. Tremendously underrated player and educator with a lot of hard-earned wisdom.

[Christian Miller]

... all of which is pretty obvious, but it seems it bears repeating.

Going back to what Christian Miller said about shredding/Yngwie being a failure of pedagogy, I'm not sure that that's the case, because there has been plectrum/electric guitar virtuosos for as long as it's been around - I think it's more to do with the genre of rock music, where the likes of The Beatles showed that you don't necessarily need instrumental virtuosity to create great music. I think that that has had quite a big influence in the years since, not among every strand of rock music, but a fair few. And those rock guitarists who did have facility based their vocabulary usually from the blues, so when Yngwie came along, I'd imagine it was quite different.

I’m sure that’s right. I think rock for that generation kind of had its own year zero for lead guitar with the Clapton thing, and a lot of the older rock’n’roll and country style pickers from the 50s were passed over by those whose formative listening was in the 60s and 70s (the players that influenced George Harrison for example) let alone Django or Tal Farlow …

there’ll always be someone at the edge of the envelope. I don’t see why the level of technique Yngwie achieved should be unusual now if we had a functional technical pedagogy. But now we’re onto Guthrie, Toisin and Tim Henson of course.

is this not Troy’s mission? (Or get rich trying haha.)

But there’s no so much the repertoire to demand such a high level of chops tbf. It WAS mostly the blues before.

Apart from all that Mahavishnu, Al di Meola, Holdsworth etc … jazz rockers and prog players I suppose but I hesitate to say that was more marginal than shred metal in the 80s? That music was actually pretty popular… but I feel like the shred/hair metal crossover was much more mainstream somehow, more pop.

Esp Van Halen of course. No one cared that some hippy in the 70s with glasses and a beard had done tapping while sitting down like a nerd in the bowels of some 20 minute extended symphonic rock with the lead singer dressed as a scrotum, I guess! But I always see the 80s as prog’s pop revenge….

otoh Paul Gilbert even had a UK hit with Mr Big, and Extreme was all over radio in the early 90s.. soooo. Actual Girls liked this stuff too, sometimes (it helped Nuno was so very pretty)

Otoh while few would call the Beatles virtuoso players, their music has instrumental challenges. For example, I find ‘dear prudence’ bloody hard to play. I think music can be difficult for all kinds of reasons. The assumption among shred obsessed youngsters can sometimes be if it doesn’t sound impressive it is merely ‘simple.’ Speed =/= technique… but I don’t need to tell you that I expect…

[Litterick]

You’re welcome to argue otherwise

I am beyond caring.

[ccroft]

....No one cared that some hippy in the 70s with glasses and a beard had done tapping while sitting down like a nerd in the bowels of some 20 minute extended symphonic rock with the lead singer dressed as a scrotum...

So... you saw me play in Portland Oregon in 1973? HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE?

Actually, now that I think about it, I've never had a beard and I'm pretty sure the singer wasn't dressed as a scrotum. Are you sure you're remembering correctly? I think you got the visuals mixed up between the guitar player and the singer. It was a long time ago...

[m_d]

I’m sure that’s right. I think rock for that generation kind of had its own year zero for lead guitar with the Clapton thing, and a lot of the older rock’n’roll and country style pickers from the 50s were passed over by those whose formative listening was in the 60s and 70s (the players that influenced George Harrison for example) let alone Django or Tal Farlow …

there’ll always be someone at the edge of the envelope. I don’t see why the level of technique Yngwie achieved should be unusual now if we had a functional technical pedagogy. But now we’re onto Guthrie, Toisin and Tim Henson of course.

is this not Troy’s mission? (Or get rich trying haha.)

But there’s no so much the repertoire to demand such a high level of chops tbf. It WAS mostly the blues before.

Apart from all that Mahavishnu, Al di Meola, Holdsworth etc … jazz rockers and prog players I suppose but I hesitate to say that was more marginal than shred metal in the 80s? That music was actually pretty popular… but I feel like the shred/hair metal crossover was much more mainstream somehow, more pop.

Esp Van Halen of course. No one cared that some hippy in the 70s with glasses and a beard had done tapping while sitting down like a nerd in the bowels of some 20 minute extended symphonic rock with the lead singer dressed as a scrotum, I guess! But I always see the 80s as prog’s pop revenge….

otoh Paul Gilbert even had a UK hit with Mr Big, and Extreme was all over radio in the early 90s.. soooo. Actual Girls liked this stuff too, sometimes (it helped Nuno was so very pretty)

Otoh while few would call the Beatles virtuoso players, their music has instrumental challenges. For example, I find ‘dear prudence’ bloody hard to play. I think music can be difficult for all kinds of reasons. The assumption among shred obsessed youngsters can sometimes be if it doesn’t sound impressive it is merely ‘simple.’ Speed =/= technique… but I don’t need to tell you that I expect…

Whatever that's supposed to mean, but Troy doesn't "get rich trying". That's not how he makes a living as far as I know. He does high-profile HR consulting last I heard. I haven't paid for more than the equivalent of at most five guitar lessons for stuff that no guitar teacher is able to understand or teach.

I also think there's in fact massive repertoire to demand such a high level of chops. I see it all the time. The Joscho/Biréli videos above directly contradict what you say. They are wonderful stuff, and I dare anyone say it's all chops and isn't supremely musical. Even 50s or earlier jazz. Take a Clifford Brown chorus, what do you do for those fast few bars, do you just give up, leave them aside... for 200 hundred choruses you'd be willing to study ? How many times are you going to give up and have to pretend speed isn't necessary in jazz? Well it is for all instruments except guitar... but wait... Django in 1937 (even Eddy Lang)... Benson, Martino,Metheny, the totality of gypsy jazz... oh no that never happened? Those guys are the reason many guys pick up the guitar. I had that direct experience with my guitar teacher of long ago. Fast and clean technique infuses down to medium or slow tempos, a kind of sprightliness. Troy mentions the concept of technical "headroom" in relation to that. It goes for comping too. Without that technique you're not free to play what you want, or simply follow you teacher's assignments (in my case). There's also a number of very sharp comments on Troy's part about the organization of vocabulary around a right/left hand coordination system - it's a fascinating aspect and absolutely central in so many great players' styles.

Are you familiar by any chance with Daniel Coyle's The Talent Code ? It's an investagation into learning centers in sports and music that yield an inordinate number of "champions" in proportion to their size. Well a common thread in their pedagogy is an emphasis on technique first.

I'll go out on a limb and say chops are a legitimate aspiration. In my thirties I reached quite a high level at tennis. Tennis magazines are full of instruction about improving your playing (same for golf). It was a passion, I had books, magazines and began making extensive notes and experimenting with it all. It's a VERY SIMILAR approach to what Troy does. Anyway, I met in New York an instructor who was into teaching what the pros were really doing - again very similar to Troy's approach. He looked at my backhand and said Federer does it like this, Alberto Costa does it like that - the Costa technique looks more natural for you, I'll teach it to you. And we did it. And man, we rebuilt my backhand from the ground up. I had three variations of spin, one flat, one slice, plus volley. It was magical. I experienced a few hours over the next few years of playing "in the zone", it's not something you ever forget. It's obvious to me that technical freedom, besides physical grace and power and mental well-being, yields ideas and creativity you never thought you were capable of. Yet at the US Open around that period, I heard Nick Bolletieri, a then very famous coach, saying you couldn't change your technique as an adult ; that was in direct response to a question from the public, I feel for the guy who asked it to this day. Did I do the impossible ? Most likely, no. We just need to trust ourselves more.