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Yes, Sure for medium tempo. I mean more for playing up tempo stuff, 280 plus. Fast tempos are not necessarily about the ability to shred 8ths, but about being able to give the sense of a tempo while playing something open. Adam Rogers for example is incredibly good at this. (And also shredding 8ths of course).
Originally Posted by m_d
Otoh the technical challenges are not that you need to pick like Paul Gilbert. You need to be even, in time and agile esp across the strings. It’s not so much about being a great alternate picker for example (although some are) so much as having ways to get the notes out… players vary on this. Many are quite ‘legato’* oriented. Metheny hammers a lot of notes for instance, inc across strings.
A lot of this is intuitive; it’s about hearing the phrase.
* I hate the use of the term ‘legato’ for left hand slurs. Oohhh it makes me mad haha
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09-23-2023 08:24 AM
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Well, the actually important thing is - can he teach it? Originally Posted by m_d
From my experience i have to be honest and say I don’t actually know. I use his ideas because they make sense to me, but I don’t know how well it works tbh.
perhaps some people here have experiences with using TGs ideas.
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though the old vids are all up there on the tubes… Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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Interesting stuff!
I'm more concerned about ergonomics and sustainable playing than speed, but playing in a way that utilises the muscles better should also be more sustainable and cause less injury.
One thing that is important to think about in this is the effect on the sound. The picking angle and slanting of the pick has a big effect on the sound as well. This is something that might not be as noticeable when playing with distortion, but with a clean sound it makes a big difference.
I have never really liked the sound of Benson picking for instance. Sounds too "choppy" and percussive for me.
But that is a matter of individual taste.
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I don’t really hear the likeness between Vai and EVH. Vai sounds very much like his own thing. Perhaps it’s because he was already touring with Zappa when EVH broke big, he could be influenced without it being everything… Originally Posted by m_d
Satriani always struck me as having … borrowed… Holdsworths mid 70s style and allied it to some catchy tunes … exhibit A
Satch did mention the Tony William’s new lifetime was a massive watershed moment for him. Again I don’t hear that much direct EVH influence in his playing. More the squeals and dive bomb tricks?
As for Yngwie that was a few years later. Vai did replace Yngwie in a band though, iirc. I can hear more influence on Vai perhaps, not sure if I hear much in Satriani?
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Interesting. Originally Posted by m_d
The classical stuff isn’t directly analogous though, because there are all the other finger combinations. Basic scales are usually taught to be played with multiple fingering combinations pretty quickly. Maybe that would be roughly analogous to learning to economy pick pretty early.
I’m far from world-class but when I get sort of a late beginner—maybe someone who has a couple pentatonics together and some barre chords—I teach alternating immediately because it’s just the simplest way of telling someone they should organize their picking. Like actually think about it, which most people don’t. But I usually teach left hand slurs the next lesson or pretty shortly after, but played in rhythm and stuff, which disrupts the strict alternating. Economy picking comes after a few weeks when they get to a triad arpeggio or something.
I think the big thing is just that the technique is coming from the musical effect. I think the problem with a lot of guitar players is that they just alternate pick without thinking about it, or economy pick without considering that it actually sounds different than alternate picking, or slur with the left hand because they can’t pick fast enough, but don’t consider the musical effect.
Anyway … maybe that’s not relevant. But the technique stuff is downstream of the musical stuff. Not that the technique isn’t important. But like Christian mentioned earlier … rigidity with a particular technique is usually going to end up being counterproductive.
With that said, I obvs wish I could play faster.
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Ok, I see your alternate-picking scepticism here. It's not widely taught and when it is taught, it's not taught well, plus it's also not in any case very teachable any way! And I also see you claiming it's just one of those things that you're either good or bad at. I thought TG's material was all about debunking this kind of mystification of alternate picking. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
I think all economy players need to have at least reasonable alternate picking down, as we can see in this video, it seems to be a crucial ingredient of economy picking: Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Yes, I am quite aware of the differences between jazz and shred guitar. OTOH I'd say there is at least some overlap in the technique, even if a jazz guitarist ultimately doesn't want to play fast diatonic scale sequences or whatever. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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But is it good for metal?
Seriously though, there are well known paradigms that work across the entire body. One of them is: the fewer movements needed to generate a motion, the quicker that motion can be. A second is that control is easier with big muscles than with small. A third is: repeatability = reliability.
So imagine (as an example) that you’ve developed a technique where you’ve not considered those things yet have developed some speed, but it’s dependent upon an anchor point (such as a raised pickguard). What do you do if handed a guitar without that pickguard?
I think this is why many teachers emphasize picking from the elbow. It’s entirely instrument-independent and therefore portable, and it utilizes larger muscles and is therefore more controllable for the average player. Likewise, alternate picking always leaves you in position for the next note. You may have to skip a string or three depending on the music, but by comparison to, say, all down strokes it definitely is more efficient. There’s nothing wrong IMO with learning one-direction arpeggiation… AFTER you’ve mastered alternate picking.
Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Something that always seems to get overlooked in discussions of 1980's heavy metal guitarists haha. Yngwie actually had, by definition, bad technique, because he had to take a break from his career due to playing caused injury. I understand that was his left hand though? Originally Posted by PatrickWD
But then you have someone like Adam Rogers who uses the same pick grip and pretty much plays like an economy picker. And sounds really smooth.One thing that is important to think about in this is the effect on the sound. The picking angle and slanting of the pick has a big effect on the sound as well. This is something that might not be as noticeable when playing with distortion, but with a clean sound it makes a big difference.
I have never really liked the sound of Benson picking for instance. Sounds too "choppy" and percussive for me.
But that is a matter of individual taste.
Actually I would say using a 1.5mm pick edge on like this is a really good way to smooth out your pick attack. That's not how GB does it, of course.
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OTOH what do you if you are used to employing a floating hand position and you are playing a loud gig where the guitar is feeding back? This has been problem for me. I had to relearn my picking with my hand in muting position. Gigs have a way of teaching you... Originally Posted by coyote-1
But is it good for metal?
Seriously though, there are well known paradigms that work across the entire body. One of them is: the fewer movements needed to generate a motion, the quicker that motion can be. A second is that control is easier with big muscles than with small. A third is: repeatability = reliability.
So imagine (as an example) that you’ve developed a technique where you’ve not considered those things yet have developed some speed, but it’s dependent upon an anchor point (such as a raised pickguard). What do you do if handed a guitar without that pickguard?
I honestly think the traditional alt picking approach - gripping the pick tightly, rotating the forearm to strike the string and so on, is always going to hit sharp limits on speed. Those who can alt pick fast have something else going on, something not covered by the trad pedagogy.I think this is why many teachers emphasize picking from the elbow.
OTOH I find Bruce Foreman's right hand quite difficult to look at (all that spasmodic forearm movement and tension in the lower wrist) and you cant say it doesn't work for him -he's a beast! But it's not a beautiful, graceful or relaxed looking technique like George Benson's, or Bireli's.
My main concern is I see lots of players who learn this way and it seems like 80-90% of them are unhappy with their picking. As with Gypsy rest stroke picking, the results speak for themselves.
Maybe I'm wrong!
What does mastering alternate picking actually mean in this case? Steve Morse? Molly Tuttle? Al di Meola?It’s entirely instrument-independent and therefore portable, and it utilizes larger muscles and is therefore more controllable for the average player. Likewise, alternate picking always leaves you in position for the next note. You may have to skip a string or three depending on the music, but by comparison to, say, all down strokes it definitely is more efficient. There’s nothing wrong IMO with learning one-direction arpeggiation… AFTER you’ve mastered alternate picking.
Or just a reasonable command of alternation at moderate tempo? That doesn't imply mastery to me, more like being 'conversant' - which I'd probably say is a good idea.
I would not say I've mastered alternate picking. I would say I can alternate pick things at reasonable speed and I would advise working on it as an exercise.
Also I don't care. I would say I alternate pick now more than I used to. I like the way it feels for medium tempo playing.
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Argh, No that's not what I'm saying. Originally Posted by James W
OK, I'll try and put it succinctly - when players are told to alternate their picking direction up and down and not given instruction on how this movement should be made, the teacher is not teaching a technique at all.
Alternate picking is not a technique. It's an outcome....
....which I think is what TG has shown.I thought TG's material was all about debunking this kind of mystification of alternate picking.
Mike Stern for example is a player whose right hand functions with what TG calls USX mechanics (like a gypsy jazz player) and he is a strict alternate picker. he achieves this with a totally different mechanic and therefore technique to John MacLaughlin (who is a DSX player IIRC).
Well you obviously have to be able to alternate on one string*. but that's not generally the problem with alternate picking. The problem is generally the string crossing. Economy styles are one solution to the common problem of what TG calls 'string hopping'.I think all economy players need to have at least reasonable alternate picking down, as we can see in this video, it seems to be a crucial ingredient of economy picking:
Problem is - timing. Most experienced teachers and players know that economy picking almost always rushes for almost everyone. You have to prepared to sweat blood to get that shit in check. Gambale said it took him an afternoon to learn to sweep pick and then several years to get it in time.
Alt picking otoh is good for timing but introduces mechanical challenges. That's one reason course to recommend alternate picking for moderate speeds (or what I call rhythmic picking, down on the beat, up on the upbeat) which is what I teach beginners, like most I expect. However I also teach downward rest strokes. And it's fine for pretty much all the playing they are going to be doing for quite a while.
remember String Hopping is not really a problem at medium speeds. TG shows that Eric Johnson does it for example. It's fine. It's only when you are trying to optimise fast movements. Frankly, I think there's a lot of work one could be doing in learning jazz before you have to worry about that type of thing.
One should reasonably be able to play up to around 180bpm (maybe higher) 8th notes only with downstrokes. I think the Tristano school (inc Billy Bauer, Satch's teacher haha) taught that way. Learning to play purely in downstrokes is excellent training IMO.
*Sheer brutish single string speed is not that big a part of jazz guitar. Also tremolo picking is a different thing. I had to learn it separately to playing scales and arpeggios. I'm quite good at it now, it's fun for chords and stuff. It comes from a totally different mechanic.Yes, I am quite aware of the differences between jazz and shred guitar. OTOH I'd say there is at least some overlap in the technique, even if a jazz guitarist ultimately doesn't want to play fast diatonic scale sequences or whatever.
Basically the body does not like to alternate the same muscle group fast. That's a really important understanding for anything...
I group my fast 16th alterations as a grouping of 4 movements, an active muscular one followed by a 'bouncing' of the hand, if that makes sense. I think of it like a drum roll. I think the first comes from my forearm and the other three from my wrist, maybe. I can pulse like this without locking up.
OTOH if you can play 8th downstrokes on one string at 180 it rather obviously follows that you should be able to play 16ths with alternation.Last edited by Christian Miller; 09-23-2023 at 11:36 AM.
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Yea... picking needs to work, but what is working. I tend to believe you need to be able to play at least up to tempos of 180... and by play ...I mean you need to be able to subdivide at the tempo.
Generally meaning... be able to play 16ths or triplets. The difficulty is if your playing 16ths... they need to be able to swing.... which means your subdividing again. Swing feel is triplets...
And then... feel is being able to create longer sections of space or time with rhythmic organization. (Of course... melodic and harmonic concepts come into play.)
I've been playing gigs and still do... for 50+ years....and most of my work is working in a rhythm section... or as a rhythm section.... rhythmical comping. Picking applies to comping.... Tempos apply to the space between what your playing. By that I mean.... you don't play all the attacks. But feel comes from being able to.
And when playing jazz.... you need to be able to do this live, not worked out parts. Be able to not have to think about picking... just play, interact and react to the music.
So whatever style you choose to use.... it needs to be organized. The style is what becomes your "Reference".
This doesn't meant that's all you you... but it becomes your internal starting point. I use Alt. Picking as my reference... because it works well for sight reading and it is easily rhythmically organizes.... I can still use economy, cross, hybrids ... I sweep all the time. But the point is I have an internal approach that works and I don't need to think about it. ( disclaimer....I play Jazz and use jazz boxes)
Eventually... you also develop internal picking styles for effect.... create a sound or fits a style of sound better.
Just like different fingerings naturally create feels.
If you don't have chops.... the easiest approach to getting picking chops is to do the spider drills. And not just on single strings... across strings, up and down. The drill is just for picking... no harmonic, melodic, rhythmic or style aspects. (eventually try and not watch your fingers).
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Thinking about the ergonomics of this, it does seem to me that holding the pick in the way he is showing in the video gives you a very strained thumb position. It requires an overextension of the thumbs "ip" joint.
When i have had anatomy classes for musicians there was always a focus on that the healthiest position for the joints is being as central as possible (not at the ends of extension or flexion).
The way i hold my pick is the complete opposite of that as i slant it the other way.
But my picking technique is very close to side to side motion of the wrist.
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@Christian: IMO the solution to feedback is equipment. Seriously. Look at George Benson. He has a number of large carved spruce archtops, which he is known to have utilized in many of his recording sessions. Yet what does he play onstage? Laminate top Ibanez guitars. He has specifically cited their resistance to feedback (compared to carved archtops) as one of the main reasons for that choice. And if your gig is large/loud enough, you’d move to a solidbody.
Aside from that, I think that playing predominantly from the elbow is not incompatible with muting. It’s not like you are moving your arm all that far to pick a string, so you can have the meaty area at the bottom of your palm sitting on the strings as you make that motion.
I also don’t claim that such picking is the “only way”. I think it’s inevitable that each player will eventually build in the things they need (such as muting), and adapt their picking style as required. But I do think that moving from the elbow is the best fundamental starting point.
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I play es175 and an es335, and sometimes a telecaster. You can be playing a guitar made of granite and you’d still need to find a way to mute the open strings, it has nothing to do with the body of the guitar. Originally Posted by coyote-1
Some people soldier on with it…. Adam doesn’t mute for example. I can’t be dealing with that, so I pick muting. I suppose you could get an old school van eps string mute. Tbh I think it’s 2023 and we don’t need to maintain a floating wrist on electric instruments.
neither do I want to say that it’s not the way to do it just cos I don’t do it that way.Aside from that, I think that playing predominantly from the elbow is not incompatible with muting. It’s not like you are moving your arm all that far to pick a string, so you can have the meaty area at the bottom of your palm sitting on the strings as you make that motion.
I also don’t claim that such picking is the “only way”. I think it’s inevitable that each player will eventually build in the things they need (such as muting), and adapt their picking style as required. But I do think that moving from the elbow is the best fundamental starting point.
What I would say is that gypsy style picking delivers consistently as an approach to learning acoustic plectrum guitar. So it is certainly, a way.
It’s used all over the world in different cultures so it was clearly convergently arrived at as a good solution.
I don’t know precisely what you mean by playing with the elbow, but if you mean making up strokes and down strokes with the whole forearm translating up and down and no movement from the wrist, there’s a point where that bad boy is really going to go into spasm. I do see players picking like that (Bruce springs to mind) though.
(Plus while the arm being a heavy thing like to go down, on planet Earth we have this thing call gravity which means the recovery takes more effort than the downstroke. In fact the forearm downstroke should take NO effort. It’s a release. The forearm down and upstroke cannot be regarded as mechanically the same. This is something that must be understood to develop fast relaxed alternation imo.)
Trad rest stroke picking fixes the problem by having the upstroke motion come from the wrist (although this I suppose is in fact a forearm rotation when you think about it). Again, the body does not like alternating the same movement.
The bent wrist angle of classic rest stroke picking also helps out here - a straighter wrist still works (Joe pass, Andreas Oberg), but the bent wrist makes the thing very natural ime. the arm wants to rotate. It’s like knocking on a door then, not so much like turning a screwdriver.
The forearm definitely has a use in consistent reliable acoustic pick technique but it’s not that.
otoh you can be a brilliant electric picker and never use your elbow.Last edited by Christian Miller; 09-23-2023 at 12:22 PM.
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I would be interested in hearing what Troy Gordy's picking sounds like with a clean sound. The video was interesting, I watched most of it, but it's completely not a sound I'm interested in doing myself.
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I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Jim Mullen , an almost perverse right hand technique but he sounds amazing and can tear it up at any tempo . I'm not sure what the lesson to be learned is there but it's surely something - maybe something to do with intent .
Anyway , the real master of right hand technique is this man , he also has a better haircut than all those shred nerds -
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He’s done demos on acoustic and had a good tone. He’s not a jazz player obviously, but he does play some examples in that vein. He’s very curious about technique in music generally, not just rock/metal. Originally Posted by supersoul
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A lot of left hand articulation (‘legato’) and downward rest strokes with the thumb as far as I can see. Originally Posted by MrTriangle
He’s great!
one lesson I take away from this is a lot of people get bothered about whether a technique will be ‘flexible’ enough to allow ‘free improvisation.’ While people worry about this, others go with a bunch of vibe - a bag of musical ideas that work with their technique and go and get playing!
Jim by his own admission can’t play everything, but what he plays he plays fantastically and it sounds killing.
Don’t spend too much time fixated on ideals.
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He sounds just as fine clean, on electric or acoustic, whatever technique he uses.
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I encourage people to buy a month subscription to the cracking the code site and watch all the primer videos and do the motion tests etc if they're curious about this stuff and haven't yet. The free vids on YouTube don't quite present the whole picture. (This is said with the understanding that some of you already have a thing going and don't need or are interested in CtC)
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I'm sorry but in the OP video when the bpm was going up to 230, 240... with that monotonous grinding tone on the bottom string only, I stopped. Where does this notion that the ability to strike a string at robotic speeds is going to make you a good musician come from? Is this something Pat Metheny or Eric Johnson need to know about? I'm not necessarily seeking answers.
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Faster, faster, faster. We are all being judged by the standards of the shredders. I blame social media.
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What exactly is a robotic speed? And in answer to your question, being able to go at very fast speeds gives you headroom, so even if you have no intention of using that ability to make music, it at least makes slower tempos (or not quite as fast, I should say) seem easier. Originally Posted by Peter C
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