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Translation: lose the tension.
(I teach a lot of kids.)
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09-22-2023 03:21 PM
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I think alternate picking, at least on one string, is perhaps the most logical place to start for a neophyte. And straight alternate picking has its pros and cons according to what you want to play, as do economy picking and gypsy picking, and all three of these feature some kind of technical penalty along the way that you have to try to overcome. I've dabbled in gypsy picking (and tried some of Cecil Alexander's style) but came to the conclusion, just from applying it to some bebop heads, that it didn't seem to make the difficult parts of these any easier and that it just complicated things. I still practice some economy picking every day, though I note that, while it is undoubtedly more economical than alternate picking, it doesn't entirely rid one of some of the challenges of alternate picking e.g. string crossing when your pick ends up on the wrong side of the string to the one you want to go to - so I guess all great economy pickers must have decent alternate picking chops too. I think in presenting these options to a neophyte, I would be honest about these pros and cons. Another issue for me with gypsy picking was that I just couldn't see how it could accommodate things like playing extracted linear triads from scales in various inversions and the like - but I could certainly see how it can be used for particular vocabulary. I see that Randy Vincent gives both the alternate and economy picking in his Guitarists' Introduction to Jazz.
Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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The problem is not so much I object to alternate picking as the way it is taught. You can alternate pick like a demon if you have the right technique. The technique is not widely taught - in fact I can’t think of anyone who teaches it - just the fact that you must go up/down. That’s not a technique. That’s a hurdle. It’s a filter. Some will be good at it, others will never work out it out.
The point of technique is that everyone can do it - IF they work on the exercises etc. that’s a big IF of course, but I don’t feel alternate picking in so much as it is ‘taught’ has that degree of reliability.
Furthermore I would say the movements required to do alternate picking well are significantly more complex imo than economy or dwps picking, which is why strict alternate pickers are not actually as common among jazzers as is often assumed. Less than 50% I would guess.
I don’t think it’s necessarily true that those who are good at one will be good at the other. People adopt a solution that works for them. Anything else is a waste of practice time. The problem is unless you are lucky to have a Rodney Jones as a teacher it may in fact be a matter of luck if you find a solution.
I don’t regard myself as having much talent in music, but one thing that I’ve never had trouble with is right hand technique. Part of the reason is (i think) I haven’t bent myself in two worrying about the right way of doing things, and I’ve listened to what my body is saying… some people seem to think there’s a right and wrong way of doing things otoh. Even people like Pat Metheny who pick manifestly better than 90% of players and yet seem to feel their model ought not to be imitated because it’s not correct. It’s frankly mental (come to think of it PM’s form looks a lot like Troy’s in that video.)
Lastly, the problems facing a jazz guitarist are different to a shredder. We need to be a lot better at going across the strings for a start, but we don’t have to do it a Paul Gilbert speed. It’s possible that some problems Troy is trying to solve is less of an issue for jazz players playing at non warp speed.Last edited by Christian Miller; 09-22-2023 at 04:49 PM.
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Lastly I think it’s entirely possible to get way too caught up in the minutiae- whereas if you can go to the bigger picture, it’s amazing the way your body can find a way to execute things if you listen to it…
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Yeah I’m not sure where the whole notion of “alternate pickers” and “economy pickers” comes from. Almost everyone pretty plainly has to do a good bit of both?
And I’ve only seen a few of Troy’s videos, but I like all the categorizing stuff he does. That’s super helpful. I think the whole “solving picking” thing leads to some weird places for a lot of people but that usually seems more to be a consequence of SEO on YouTube videos than what he really says in the videos.
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Man this is so real. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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This is what I meant by a logical and systematic approach to picking. None of the picking systems you mention teach you how to pick, strictly speaking. They have rules for when to use what pick strokes, but they don't teach you how to make the motions, with the exception of maybe gypsy, but not in detail. I wonder if there's a method that could be used to simply teach efficient motions, given that we have a better understanding of how they work. It seems like TG is trying to do a lot of the work, and I'm interested to see where it leads. Given how complex the motions are, there may not be a truly simple way to do it, but there may be some things that could point a beginner in the right direction. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Absolutely - the goal is to actually make music. But I'm an engineer by day, and it's fun to apply some engineering brain to this stuff haha Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Well there’s clearly extreme ends of the spectrum - Chuck Wayne on the economy side, Pat Martino and Mike Stern on the strict alternate side. And many in the middle somewhere … Originally Posted by pamosmusic
but if I had to guess I think all this terminology is a product of 80s/90s guitar magazines.
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Well there are some problems that need to be sorted out with that mind set. Here’s something in a Turkish tune I was playing with a band (tempo 160 and up) Originally Posted by BreckerFan
rather like 26-2 it would not work with my default way of doing things.
Tried a few fingerings and picking combinations. in the end I deduced it was weirdly easier to play with strict alternate picking.
Which is funny because ouds are played with what we’d call gypsy picking technique. (Not sure about other Middle Eastern plucked strings.)
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Rest stroke picking isn’t the only one that teaches student HOW to make the movements (I prefer that term to gypsy picking for a number of reasons, not least because its use goes way beyond Manouche guitar) but I think it’s certainly the most widespread. Originally Posted by BreckerFan
im finding this very hard to substantiate but one story is that Django learned this technique from a plectrum banjo teacher? Some say this is classical plucked string technique for mandolin. So far my research has turned up nothing on this, including asking classical Mando students, but it would explain its strict and rather classical nature. I feel it’s the nearest thing we have a classical acoustic guitar plectrum technique, and shares similarities with Segovian fingerstyle technique (high wrist, rest strokes, acoustic projection etc.)
other schools that teach the how of it are confined to individual teachers almost. People talk about Chuck Wayne picking (Ben Monder and Pasquale Grasso) or Rodney Jones (miles Okazaki, Sheryl Bailey) but I think those schools are limited to the teacher and their students. There’s not much out there on the web.
it’s crazy that a lot of the leading jazz guitarists seems essentially self taught in terms of picking technique - inc Pat Metheny, Adam Rogers and George Benson. I don’t know about Peter Bernstein and Kurt Rosenwinkel, but looking at their quite idiosyncratic picking hands it would not surprise me if they’d been left to their own devices on technique. They worked it out in their various ways but you do wonder how many hit a hard ceiling in their playing and blamed themselves.
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Yngwie does have remarkable technique though. In his early series Troy mentions the mechanics of it are identical to the Benson technique.
And I can appreciate Yngwie. He had an incredible life journey from Sweden to stardom in the United States. All those metal and shred guys brought quite a lot to the guitar world IMO at the very least in terms of restoring a measure of technical demand to popular music - in the wake of punk, new wave and coinciding in part with grunge. I did grow up listening to punk and new wave but really appreciate clean technical execution now. I like Troy's equanimity and agnosticism as he noticed clear technical similarities beyond epochs and genres, high-minded and "simple" styles. With all that said there's not question talent and inspiration trump technique - see guys like John Scofield or Marc Ribot and other countless examples.
To conclude, a few examples of right-hand technique as applied to inspired and swinging strumming and comping. I wish there were more of this in jazz guitar styles beyond manouche inspired.
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How did we cope before YouTube gave us all these instructors? Somehow, we muddled through. We learned how to hold a plectrum and hit strings with it.
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the fact that it is remarkable to be able to play fast clean arpeggios and scales on guitar is kind of the problem, no? Imagine the same reaction in the classical violin or piano world. Or sax players! Originally Posted by m_d
tbf I don’t think that is the only quality Yngwie has as a player, but it’s the one everyone noticed, which tells us something…
(Also - I daresay that fast, clean scales and arps are no longer very unusual… guitar pedagogy and technique have really moved on since the 80s)
There are aspects I really don’t like what shred and metal guitar has done to musical discourse. It’s very guitar centric and tab-oriented. Players like Vai and Satriani are sophisticated musicians with wide reference points, great ears and reading skills. I wish players would aspire to that side of it as well as the ‘by numbers’ stuff, but hey ho. Not their fault and I think a mix of tab culture in the 80s and 90s has been turbo charged by YouTube.And I can appreciate Yngwie. He had an incredible life journey from Sweden to stardom in the United States. All those metal and shred guys brought quite a lot to the guitar world IMO at the very least in terms of restoring a measure of technical demand to popular music - in the wake of punk, new wave and coinciding in part with grunge.
I did grow up listening to punk and new wave but really appreciate clean technical execution now. I like Troy's equanimity and agnosticism as he noticed clear technical similarities beyond epochs and genres, high-minded and "simple" styles. With all that said there's not question talent and inspiration trump technique - see guys like John Scofield or Marc Ribot and other countless examples.
To conclude, a few examples of right-hand technique as applied to inspired and swinging strumming and comping. I wish there were more of this in jazz guitar styles beyond manouche inspired.
But then wider guitar culture is generally pretty cringe… it comes with the territory haha
i think a lot of metal players graduate onto Manouche jazz. I find it all a bit guitar centric that world tbh. I love the guitar and guitar players, but I find the ‘guitar music’ vibe to be a turn off (even in classical) if that makes any sense which it probably doesn’t haha.Last edited by Christian Miller; 09-23-2023 at 08:02 AM.
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We had Guitar Player magazine articles about how to shred like the latest gunslinger from Shrapnel Records, with murky black and white photographs of hand positions annotated with lines and arrows to indicate the pathways of carpal tunnel stressors. On the opposite page was a full color ad for Leslie West endorsing Gorilla amplifiers, with the quote: "Nothing Screams Like a Gorilla TubeStack™" Originally Posted by Litterick
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In fact I do think concentration on a ‘pick every note at every tempo’ right hand might not be the best focus of attention for jazz guitarists…
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I remember the days of guitar techniques magazine with Guthrie Govan briefly on its writing staff… or Shaun Baxter in the Guitar Magazine. Star licks and Gambale in Lycra on VHS. Instructional videos and tab were everywhere. Originally Posted by supersoul
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I would differ on that, Yngwie was religion to my best buddy and quite a few others in school. He wasn't to me, but my friend had made me a "mix tape"of various metal hits which I treasured for as long as I used a tape player. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Isn't it the case that Vai and Satriani litteraly stand on the shoulders of Yngwie (and Eddie Van Halen, desde luego) ?
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Yeah the only difference with YouTube is that we can actually see what they’re doing and don’t have to pay for the grainy VHS approximation. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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I could listen to Joscho's or Biréli's duets/trios all day (as in the clips above, or Biréli w/ Sylvain Luc). Not generally the case with other jazz players - because the comping is poor with no swing to speak of. The direct cause being, you guessed it... poor right hand technique. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Yes Yngwie was remarkable. I don’t dispute that. That’s not what I’m saying Originally Posted by m_d
I mean I can’t get through ‘I am a Viking’ without creasing but the guitar playing is undeniably on point.
The thing is, outside of the guitar world, players have a proper pathway to achieve very high levels of technique to play things like Paganini and Liszt - I saw a 17 year old pianist playing the crap out of a very fast, impressive sounding Liszt piece at a musical school I work at the other week for instance - while Yngwie somehow came up with this virtuoso picking style on his own. Which is impressive but also probably down to luck and innate talent. That’s sort of my point. Even now I don’t think that pedagogy really exists. For example YouTube gives loads of contradictory info …
I think TG is credible simply because he accurately describes what I already do, not because I have learned to pick from him. That’s a different journey, and I await to see how well it works out for those learning that way.
Anyway I like Uli John Roth better haha
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Why ? My teacher (world-class level) of long ago insisted on that, before introducing slurs and legato, and consistent, swinging 4-to-the-bar, before introducing complex rhythms. That would be a fairly classical approach. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Im afraid I don’t think this is an opinion I can take very seriously. Originally Posted by m_d
Last edited by Christian Miller; 09-23-2023 at 08:32 AM.
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Uli John Roth is a legend! Much more musical to my ears than Yngwie (who I did learn to appreciate after trying and failing to play some of his stuff).
My picking technique is almost exactly the opposite of what Troy Grady shows in that video. I pick with small motions, hardly any depth to my attack, and no slant. I can pick pretty fast, but it's my left hand that holds me back. I can't imagine being able to play 16ths at 160bpm and keeping my two hands in sync.
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He's credible too because he's not too shabby as a musician for a non-professional. And guitar isn't even his first instrument. I tend to think personally his work has had and will have a huge impact on guitar world. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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