What do you guys work on when working technique?

[jazznylon]

Hello everyone I'm taking a break for a short time since I had to send in my 10 string guitar for repairs so I might as well talk about technique with you guys. But yeah as the title says what do you work on when it comes to technique? It might be fun to share some ideas in this thread so I'll just go through with what I work on first.

Inspired by Reg's thoughts 90% percent of my practice time is based on technique for the moment (for a year), the rest I just learn melodies by ear for around 2 hours. I go through spider drills as a warm up, going through all 24 possible fingering combinations playing classical fingerstyle with rest stroke (using I, M). Single string movement first, chromatically then shifting major 2nds then shifting minor 3rds. Then playing in position based on the patterns for around the first 3 positions (personally I think thats good enough) forwards and backwards. Finally playing across the 4 strings with each 4 notes on each string set, this is definitely the most difficult to go through. Patterns 1234, 4321 and their variants are the easiest to play. The rest are more challenging or gets into possibly impossible territory once one reaches very fast speed. The fastest I can play cleanly and thoroughly is 400 bpm eight notes, though for certain combinations I find myself sometimes taking a slight pause when I play the next string when playing normally in position at that speed. Playing 400 bpm eight across 4 strings is the hardest thing I've done using finger rest strokes as I can only do it on the easier combinations, the rest is a struggle. Its pretty much the equivalent of sweep picking at that point. But yeah doing all the permutations takes around 4 hours for me starting at 300 bpm quarter notes to 400 bpm eight notes.

Then scales. As Segovia once said "Scales will solve all your problems". Not sure how true that is but it seems promising. So I go through them. The first five parent 7-note scales (Major, Harmonic Major, Melodic Minor, Harmonic Minor, Double Harmonic) and their 7 modes I go through relatively easy at 200 bpm sixteenth notes with a few mistakes here and there at times. I like sticking with 200 bpm for scales mostly because I can go moderate tempo, fast, then very fast. I play all the scales and modes in first position then move up the string at the highest string up to the 12 fret then back down. Playing on a single string at high velocity consistently is definitely a challenge as one has to get the shifting perfectly and fluidly (I shift frets 1-4 then 5-8 then 9-12). Doing this completely on a 10 string guitar with my tuning takes around 5 octaves. I go through the five parent 7 note scales pretty quickly (around 10-20 minutes?) but being done with scales that fast seems a bit too premature so I looked to other scales. There are 38 seven note parent scales in total with each of them 7 modes that have the maximum interval of a major 3rd between notes so I figured thats enough (along with a few others such as pentatonics and symmetrical scales). At this point I'm going to some pretty far out territory with 7 note parent scales such as Lydian b2 b6 bb7, Major Neapolitan b4 #6, Major Blues add b2, also the good old major b2, etc. I have a list of all these scales on my phone that I got from a book on amazon 'All the seven note scales - the full list' is the title so yeah. Some of the modes don't even have names (or its hard to come up names for them) so they're just formulas for example 1 b3 b5 b6 6 b7 7. I know its technically incorrect to repeat pitch numbers in 7 note scales but things get really complicated if I do otherwise so I'm labeling intervals as they normally sound anyways (in simpler terms and for practical purposes). Its pretty common to get a bluesy sound with some of these scales due to chromatics I realize. I get through these relatively easy as well since my tuning is simpler, I can't imagine doing these on standard tuning with the same effort (respect to Ben Monder!)

After I'm done with that with a few spare time I just work on the Barry Harris trick playing the scale up the 7th on tunes for each chord using the 5 parent scales and their modes I mentioned briefly in the beginning. I have played the arpeggios (for triads, 7ths, 9ths, and 13ths) and intervals playing through the five parent 7 note scales and modes in the same first position, up high the first string fashion as I done with technical scales. It was difficult in the beginning as its easy to get lost or stuck even with my simpler tuning but things get clearer as time goes on. So yeah thats pretty much what I work on for the time being, I find myself more playing more cleanly and consistently as time goes on so thats always good. Or maybe I should be mostly done with technique practice since I reached to this point I don't know. But anyways share your thoughts on what you work on technique! It will be interesting to hear to what you guys come up with and who knows maybe I'll start incorporating them to my practice too. Lets transcend technique together

[pamosmusic]

Hello everyone I'm taking a break for a short time since I had to send in my 10 string guitar for repairs so I might as well talk about technique with you guys. But yeah as the title says what do you work on when it comes to technique? It might be fun to share some ideas in this thread so I'll just go through with what I work on first.

20 minutes on tetrachord things that I do with unusual picking patterns. Very slow. Eighth notes 60-80bpm at the moment.

20 minutes on bebop heads in all positions and 20 minutes on some scales with chromatic passing notes. Focusing on getting slurs and articulation to match rhythms on those two.

Then scales. As Segovia once said "Scales will solve all your problems". Not sure how true that is but it seems promising. So I go through them. The first five parent 7-note scales (Major, Harmonic Major, Melodic Minor, Harmonic Minor, Double Harmonic) and their 7 modes I go through relatively easy at 200 bpm sixteenth notes with a few mistakes here and there at times. I like sticking with 200 bpm for scales mostly because I can go moderate tempo, fast, then very fast.

Going to be super blunt here. Pretty skeptical of the tempo markings here. Scales in 16th notes at 140 is sort of the standard for a competition classical guitarist. Derived from the tougher passages in Aranjuez, if I remember right. 16th notes at 200 … clean?

And Segovia’s little note about scales solving everything were from his scale manual where he also advocates playing slowly and working with seven different right hand fingerings. Relaxed left hand and big tone in the right. The Royal Conservatory methods and some others adapt those scales to more than just seven right hand fingerings and other patterns in the scales. Also those particular scales are a pretty narrow framework for improvising … so we’d be working up to a much bigger foundation covering the whole fingerboard which would make super fast tempos an even heavier lift.

Really curious about what sixteenths in that 200+ ballpark look like and what the goal is up there.

[AllanAllen]

I just do the major scale across the neck, through 4 to 12 keys depending on how much time I want to spend on it. This way I'm aiming for something, but my focus is on clean fretting and hitting the right string with my pick. Straight through, thirds, triads, seventh arpeggios. I usually stop there, I don't like to spend more than an hour on this. Sometimes I'll do ii V I progressions using a list of inversions I made, I need to expand on this to get 6th, m7b5 and diminished chords in there, but like I said, after an hour it's time to get to learning new songs or practicing repertoire.

[jazznylon]

Yes I can play unusually fast. It took a long time but I was eventually able to do it. I think what also helped was that I practiced rasguedos back then a lot and that really developed my extensor muscles so I can play faster in general (both my left and right hand), also I use these hand band extensor things when I don't practice guitar Amazon.com

Unfortunatedly the most resistant one got snapped this morning as I was using it ah well it had a good run. I like Segovia's idea of working with seven hand fingerings. I think the most challenging is the imami as its hard to keep in track which finger is supposed to go there where while coordinating both hands, also it has a pretty specific sound to it (kind of staccato-y?). Fingers ma is the second hardest though I can play pretty fast with it too (not sure how fast as I have to try again on my 10 string). I would make a video now but unfortunately my ten string is in the hands of a luthier for fret repair as my fingers would get cut up if I slide or shift too fast on the first string. Hopefully I can get it fixed by this friday. Not sure if this is satifastory but I have an instagram video in which I was improvising melodic minor in position on a 7 string and there were a few moments where I was playing really fast, so yeah you can check that out (its the second video). I tried practicing scales recently on my 7 string but can't get it to play fast anymore since I'm so used to my 10 string now so for now I'm just content on waiting for the 10 string while I do finger exercises to bide the time. In any case I stick with the first position only because from a technical perspective I can get more room shifting on the first string. I already done the work improvising on all 12 positions anyways (from the advancing guitarist thread if you recall).

Also I would like to be able reach the highest rest stroke speed level such as paco de lucia, matteo mancuso, and kazuhito yamashita did. Why not?

[James W]

Since my right hand is much weaker than my left, most of my designated technical practice is for my right hand.

The first fifteen minutes are broken up into three five minute segments with the following tempi: 110, 120 and 130 BPM and these five minute segments will themselves be broken up by the minute, alternating between sixteenth-note funk strumming and whatever alternate picking exercise I feel like - typically also derived from funk exercises I got from Guitar Techniques magazine way back when - I feel funk picking and strumming is the best place to start for good right hand plectrum technique. It still needs work.

The second fifteen minutes are broken up into three five minute segments with the following tempi: 140, 160 and 180 and these five minute segments will themselves be broken up by the minute, alternating between triplet sweep picking arpeggios with abrupt position shifts up and down the neck and an economy picked three-note-per-string triplet scale (a different one each day) up and down the neck.

The next ten minutes are spent on playing a scale (the same one used for the economy picking above) along a single string or rather a sextuplet sequence along a single string for two to three tempi, quite fast, 100 - up to 120 BPM, perhaps not face-melting but still reasonably fast for where I'm at.

Then five minutes on legato - playing a sixteenth note sequence up the neck across two strings, a pair of strings for each minute, in the same scale used in the previous exercises.

Then the final fifteen minutes of the first hour will be devoted to alternate picking scale sequences which will change from day to day - linear triads and four-part arpeggios, intervals, chromatically embellished intervals, cyclical quadruplets, fives, sextuplets etc. all in the same scale as mentioned above, in a few different positions, in three different tempi.

The second hour of technical practice I break down into four fifteen minute segments, the first of which involves practising the first few bars of John McLaughlin's solo on 'Marbles' - again the fifteen minutes is broken down into three five minute segments with each assigned its own tempo - 100, 117 and 134 BPM - this last tempo being the full speed of the song itself. The second fifteen minutes involves practising a bebop head, usually 'Donna Lee' at three different tempos in two different positions. The third fifteen minutes I practice Mike Stern's solo on Stella and the last fifteen minutes some licks and exercises for hybrid picking.

So that's technique. But really, the rest of the day might nominally be devoted to going deep into a tune, as well as transcription and reading, but all of this helps to consolidate technique anyway...

[jazznylon]

Cool comments btw! Yeah I worked on the anthropology head by ear recently a few days back its really difficult to play it at that fast tempo alongside the recording using fingerstyle but I got it done mostly well

[mr. beaumont]

I've been working on some light classical repertoire. It's good for EVERYTHING!

[pamosmusic]

I've been working on some light classical repertoire. It's good for EVERYTHING!

Details.

[jazznylon]

I've been working on some light classical repertoire. It's good for EVERYTHING!

Very nice! I worked on some classical stuff way back then when I was starting out in college when I was an absolute beginner on guitar. I ended up learning a couple of pieces such as Asturias (this one took a lot of work), Villa lobos Prelude 4, El Marabino, Prelude in F# minor by Manuel Ponce and some etudes. The etudes I gotten the most out of were in the beginning etudes that have you shifting a lot between chords such as Fernando Sor's Op 31 No 20, and Op 6 No 6. Those two taught me a lot about hand preparation and staccato to legato speed shifting as I was able to reach remarkable speeds playing those pieces. Then sometime afterward I changed my tuning as I want to focus solely on jazz and everything changed as I lost all those pieces I learned. Ah well life happens definitely good for technique working on classical repertoire though!

[mr. beaumont]

Details.

There's two ways to take your post, so I'll reply twice


Reply #1: Yes! Working on pieces makes you focus on details like dynamics and tone production. It forces you to look at clean, economical fretting hand movement as well.

Reply #2: I've been focusing on relatively short pieces I can commit to memory, and yes, then working on details. I've adapted a few studies for use with the pick, but I'm mainly playing with my fingers these days, nylon and steel string. It might be a phase, but it feels better. I have been working on building up some fingers only chops, as I did lose some speed, but I'm getting better. And I'm still working on my tremolo, because it's fun, and it has been huge for finger independence.

[jazznylon]

maybe you're not aware how bpm works, but i saw your insta and i call BS on the above. you do not have that kind of technique (few people on the planet have)

ah okay I guess maybe I was confused after all

[pamosmusic]

There's two ways to take your post, so I'll reply twice


Reply #1: Yes! Working on pieces makes you focus on details like dynamics and tone production. It forces you to look at clean, economical fretting hand movement as well.

Reply #2: I've been focusing on relatively short pieces I can commit to memory, and yes, then working on details. I've adapted a few studies for use with the pick, but I'm mainly playing with my fingers these days, nylon and steel string. It might be a phase, but it feels better. I have been working on building up some fingers only chops, as I did lose some speed, but I'm getting better. And I'm still working on my tremolo, because it's fun, and it has been huge for finger independence.

Wicked. I really only play the classical stuff I teach these days and I teach mostly beginners of varying commitment levels. So lots of Carulli and simpler Giuliani and Sor stuff. I haaaaaaated that stuff in college but I’ve really been enjoying it lately. Little collections that can fit two pieces on the same page. Miniatures and easy etudes. Turns out they’re decent music.

[pamosmusic]

i'm afraid so. you write:

"Yeah I worked on the anthropology head by ear recently a few days back its really difficult to play it at that fast tempo alongside the recording using fingerstyle but I got it done mostly well "

anthropology is eights notes at around 250 bpm. you claim to play eights notes at 400 bpm, so anthropology should be a piece of cake for you even at bpm 300. but it's not, right?

Yeah 16ths at 200 isn’t abnormally fast, it’s virtuoso extraordinary fast.

And it’s sometimes worth asking what’s being played at those smoking tempos. Charlie Parker isn’t incredible because he can play at 320 bpm. He’s incredible because he has vocabulary at 320. Listen to him on Koko and you hear intervals, big arpeggios, beautiful melodies, turns, triplets, rhythmic invention.

If I can’t do a few of those things at 150, I’m not terribly interested in smoking my scales at 300.

EDIT: 16ths at 200 for fingerstyle is virtuoso level stuff. Probably not quite that extraordinary with a pick but still pretty smoking fast. I certainly can’t play that fast.

[jazznylon]

i'm afraid so. you write:

"Yeah I worked on the anthropology head by ear recently a few days back its really difficult to play it at that fast tempo alongside the recording using fingerstyle but I got it done mostly well "

anthropology is eights notes at around 250 bpm. you claim to play eights notes at 400 bpm, so anthropology should be a piece of cake for you even at bpm 300. but it's not, right?

I played alongside this recording. Is this the one you meant?

[pamosmusic]

I also hate to take exception to Reg’s advice. Because I don’t exactly disagree. Technique is important … but I think it’s good to take a broad reading of technique.

I feel like when I can’t play fast, I have two problems. Sometimes it’s that I can’t think fast enough (Giant Steps). More often, I think it’s that I can’t sound convincing at those tempos. For example, I trip over my laces when I play Impressions at 300 bpm too … even though there’s not much to think about. So what makes me sound convincing?

Decent melodies, hitting most of the changes with at least a bit of color, rhythm diversity, and articulation.

Interesting melodic shapes are more challenging to play than stepwise motion. So playing simple vocabulary (like what Allan mentions … intervals, triads, etc) at moderate tempos and pushing them up is going to get me a lot of mileage.

Playing triplets at moderate tempos and pushing them up is going to do more for me than sixteenth notes at any tempo, even though the notes might be coming at the same speed.

Working on accent patterns, picking creatively, and slurring rhythmically is going to do more for me than going for pure speed.

If I can access even a little bit of that stuff at a bright tempo, I think I’ll feel better about that tempo than if I could just pull off more notes.

[pamosmusic]

I played alongside this recording. Is this the one you meant?

My tap tempo is clocking this one at about 280-290.

[jazznylon]

Yeah I can improvise okay but I definitedly don't have the jazz language ingrained in me to the point I can whip it out consistently. But its something to work on for sure

[jazznylon]

My tap tempo is clocking this one at about 280-290.

Ah okay thanks for letting me know!

[pamosmusic]

Yeah I can improvise okay but I definitedly don't have the jazz language ingrained in me to the point I can whip it out consistently. But its something to work on for sure

Something to consider.

Its also good sometimes to ask what I’m practicing and be super ungenerous with the answer.

I’ve probably done spiders twice in my life but I work with folks out of that Pumping Nylon book a lot and there are some similar pure technique exercises in there. I usually tell folks they’re a prescription drug—designed with a specific purpose in mind, to be used until that purpose is achieved, then shelved until needed again. They’re preparing your finger independence for ……………… ?

Eventually I have to get to the things the exercise is preparing me for and try to apply what I learned in some context. Hopefully Tarrega and Giuliani arpeggios eventually give way to that cool fast part in Villa-Lobos 4.

[mr. beaumont]

Wicked. I really only play the classical stuff I teach these days and I teach mostly beginners of varying commitment levels. So lots of Carulli and simpler Giuliani and Sor stuff. I haaaaaaated that stuff in college but I’ve really been enjoying it lately. Little collections that can fit two pieces on the same page. Miniatures and easy etudes. Turns out they’re decent music.

Tarrega has a few shorter form pieces that aren't too difficult that have really taught me a lot (Lagrima and Adelita)

I'm currently working on a suite in Am by Johann Anton Logy. But I think my heart lies with the Spanish composers. And Villa Lobos, but I ain't there yet!

[pamosmusic]

But I think my heart lies with the Spanish composers.

As it should. I had some friends over for Labor Day and they’re serious classical dudes and were talking about how Tarrega and Bach are so overplayed and boring and I was like …

… leave my property at once.

Tarrega has some really nice etudes and preludes that aren’t too hard. The etudes in C major and E minor are jumping to mind but there are others too.

EDIT: If the jazz police banned me from playing jazz right this second, I’d probably play Tarrega and Bach for the rest of my life and be perfectly happy.

[jazznylon]

Something to consider.

Its also good sometimes to ask what I’m practicing and be super ungenerous with the answer.

I’ve probably done spiders twice in my life but I work with folks out of that Pumping Nylon book a lot and there are some similar pure technique exercises in there. I usually tell folks they’re a prescription drug—designed with a specific purpose in mind, to be used until that purpose is achieved, then shelved until needed again. They’re preparing your finger independence for ……………… ?

Eventually I have to get to the things the exercise is preparing me for and try to apply what I learned in some context. Hopefully Tarrega and Giuliani arpeggios eventually give way to that cool fast part in Villa-Lobos 4.

Hmmm interesting perspective! I also have the pumping nylon book too but use it mostly to work on my right hand if my left hand is injured which happens rarely. Mostly the walking strings rest stroke thing and the 120 right hand studies (I don't bother with the repetitive open chords tho).

[BreckerFan]

I don't want to be too negative, but I checked out the Instagram video in question, and the fast runs don't sound clean to me. I think if they were recorded in a DAW and slowed down to half speed you could hear a lot more clearly that things aren't lining up.

On a more general note, it's interesting when people say they can play 16ths at x high tempo, because as others are saying, guitar isn't an instrument where technique can be developed in an isolated way and then linearly applied to all types of different phrases (I don't know if any instrument really is, although some are moreso than others). 16ths at 200 bpm is like Paul Gilbert alternate picking at his peak kind of speed, but he's just playing scales and scale sequences. If you asked him to use that same technique play something as "simple" as two octave triad arpeggios up and down, there's no way he could do it at that speed. Guitar technique isn't like lifting weights; there's no number that serves as an absolute measurement of ability.

Those kinds of considerations inform how I practice technique. There are certain things I do to work on types of technique in a non-musical, kind of physical capacity way, because it can transfer to a degree to musical ideas. Last night I was working on groups of 6 through 3nps scales using DSX alternate picking because that motion is weak for me and that weakness shows up in faster economy picking runs that I try to execute in improvisation. But I write a lot of etudes working on specific harmonic ideas that I want to be able to execute in improvisation. This I find is far more useful in developing useable 'technique'.

My ultimate goal would be to be able to execute clean double time lines at maybe 170-180 bpm. On a very good day I'm in maybe the 160 range, though not consistently. I don't know that I'll ever be able to actually do it, but goals I guess haha.

I think one of the pinnacles of 'technique' in jazz is McCoy Tyner. In his Coltrane quartet days he could absolutely burn some perfectly clean double time lines. This solo on But Not for Me from My Favorite Things is probably about as good as it gets. He's playing interesting, well phrased lines over changes (and ironically, they're 16th notes at about 200bpm). If you can play these lines as cleanly as he can, you have mastered jazz 'technique'.

[pamosmusic]

Hmmm interesting perspective! I also have the pumping nylon book too but use it mostly to work on my right hand if my left hand is injured which happens rarely. Mostly the walking strings rest stroke thing and the 120 right hand studies (I don't bother with the repetitive open chords tho).

I don’t know how interesting it is, but I find it helps me.

So if I’m working on a spider I have to ask myself what I’m working on. Finger independence and dexterity, I guess.

So the idea is training my fingers to go where I [expletive] tell them to go. So the second one of those patterns becomes rote, I’m not practicing what I thought I was. Im just getting better at that pattern and that pattern is … like … just a spider. So I either have to:

1. Play it faster.
2. Play it different.
3. Make it into music.

if I play it faster, I’ll top out again and then have to play faster again. If I make it different, I’ll keep it fresh, but eventually just run out of things I can do. If I figure out how to apply it to something I want to play (maybe playing those scales in contrary motion?) then I’m off to the races.

[jazznylon]

I don't want to be too negative, but I checked out the Instagram video in question, and the fast runs don't sound clean to me. I think if they were recorded in a DAW and slowed down to half speed you could hear a lot more clearly that things aren't lining up.

On a more general note, it's interesting when people say they can play 16ths at x high tempo, because as others are saying, guitar isn't an instrument where technique can be developed in an isolated way and then linearly applied to all types of different phrases (I don't know if any instrument really is, although some are moreso than others). 16ths at 200 bpm is like Paul Gilbert alternate picking at his peak kind of speed, but he's just playing scales and scale sequences. If you asked him to use that same technique play something as "simple" as two octave triad arpeggios up and down, there's no way he could do it at that speed. Guitar technique isn't like lifting weights; there's no number that serves as an absolute measurement of ability.

Those kinds of considerations inform how I practice technique. There are certain things I do to work on types of technique in a non-musical, kind of physical capacity way, because it can transfer to a degree to musical ideas. Last night I was working on groups of 6 through 3nps scales using DSX alternate picking because that motion is weak for me and that weakness shows up in faster economy picking runs that I try to execute in improvisation. But I write a lot of etudes working on specific harmonic ideas that I want to be able to execute in improvisation. This I find is far more useful in developing useable 'technique'.

My ultimate goal would be to be able to execute clean double time lines at maybe 170-180 bpm. On a very good day I'm in maybe the 160 range, though not consistently. I don't know that I'll ever be able to actually do it, but goals I guess haha.

I think one of the pinnacles of 'technique' in jazz is McCoy Tyner. In his Coltrane quartet days he could absolutely burn some perfectly clean double time lines. This solo on But Not for Me from My Favorite Things is probably about as good as it gets. He's playing interesting, well phrased lines over changes (and ironically, they're 16th notes at about 200bpm). If you can play these lines as cleanly as he can, you have mastered jazz 'technique'.

The first fast one run I can hear just fine though the second fast run I hit some muted bass notes (talking about my recording). So yeah I don't know. Maybe my ears are not that well discerning. I don't know much about DAW but they do indeed sound useful in case I make a fool of myself like now