What do you guys work on when working technique?

[GuyBoden]

I'm playing cello using midi guitar at the moment, technique has to be flawless, after 45+ years of playing beginning with Classical lessons, I thought I had extremely good technique compared to most Jazzers, but playing midi guitar Cello has taught me otherwise.

So, back in the wood shed, you won't be seeing me for a few years.

[pamosmusic]

The first fast one run I can hear just fine though the second fast run I hit some muted bass notes (talking about my recording). So yeah I don't know. Maybe my ears are not that well discerning. I don't know much about DAW but they do indeed sound useful in case I make a fool of myself like now

Man there’s not really any need to feel like a fool. I’m honestly really skeptical about any advice that gets a person working for six hours or whatever on scales and spiders. But just log that shit away. It’s a lot of work and it’s good work, but you can leave things whenever you want, catch the rest of your game up, and come back later.

Try Allan’s thing. Play those suckers in triads or something. There’s a literally inexhaustible amount of material with those scales, and any of it will challenge aspects of your technique. Or Mr Brecker has some stuff floating around about how he uses his transcriptions and stuff. If I had eight hours a day to practice, I’d do my three hour routine and then be eyeballs deep in Hank Mobley or something for the other five.

[pamosmusic]

I think one of the pinnacles of 'technique' in jazz is McCoy Tyner. In his Coltrane quartet days he could absolutely burn some perfectly clean double time lines. This solo on But Not for Me from My Favorite Things is probably about as good as it gets. He's playing interesting, well phrased lines over changes (and ironically, they're 16th notes at about 200bpm). If you can play these lines as cleanly as he can, you have mastered jazz 'technique'.

Not to mention it’s Coltrane’s reharm of the changes.

McCoy is evil.

His solo on the Half Note version of Impressions is where the whole thing tops out. Nowhere to go but down from there.

[jazznylon]

I'm playing cello using midi guitar at the moment, technique has to be flawless, after 45+ years of playing beginning with Classical lessons, I thought I had extremely good technique compared to most Jazzers, but playing midi guitar Cello has taught me otherwise.

So, back in the wood shed, you won't be seeing me for a few years.

Sad days

Man there’s not really any need to feel like a fool. I’m honestly really skeptical about any advice that gets a person working for six hours or whatever on scales and spiders. But just log that shit away. It’s a lot of work and it’s good work, but you can leave things whenever you want, catch the rest of your game up, and come back later.

Try Allan’s thing. Play those suckers in triads or something. There’s a literally inexhaustible amount of material with those scales, and any of it will challenge aspects of your technique. Or Mr Brecker has some stuff floating around about how he uses his transcriptions and stuff. If I had eight hours a day to practice, I’d do my three hour routine and then be eyeballs deep in Hank Mobley or something for the other five.

Ah okay thanks for the advice! I'll think about what to do until when I get my 10 string back

[BreckerFan]

Yeah man what pamo said. To paraphrase Adam Rogers paraphrasing someone else, no matter how badly you play, no one's gonna die, and no one's even gonna get hurt.

I always advocate transcribing and playing transcriptions along with records. There are no secrets in jazz; if you're playing music, other people can hear what you're playing, and that means with enough determination they can steal it haha. All the greats are just leaving their ideas out there for everyone to hear, so take advantage of it.

[BreckerFan]

Not to mention it’s Coltrane’s reharm of the changes.

McCoy is evil.

His solo on the Half Note version of Impressions is where the whole thing tops out. Nowhere to go but down from there.

For real. Everyone always talks about fourths this and that with him, but I don't know his general virtuosity on the instrument is as recognized as it should be.

I haven't made my way through all the Trane live albums, I'll put that one on the top of my list.

[James W]

EDIT: If the jazz police banned me from playing jazz right this second, I’d probably play Tarrega and Bach for the rest of my life and be perfectly happy.

I know how you feel... I understand the pull of certain parts of the classical guitar repertoire! But the only Bach I play these days is to get my plectrum chops up...

[jazznylon]

Yeah man what pamo said. To paraphrase Adam Rogers paraphrasing someone else, no matter how badly you play, no one's gonna die, and no one's even gonna get hurt.

I always advocate transcribing and playing transcriptions along with records. There are no secrets in jazz; if you're playing music, other people can hear what you're playing, and that means with enough determination they can steal it haha. All the greats are just leaving their ideas out there for everyone to hear, so take advantage of it.

You have a good point... in any case I'll probably just go along with what you said and go into mostly transcribing melodies and solos by ear. Its the time honored way after all, there is some crazy stuff out there

[James W]

Not to mention it’s Coltrane’s reharm of the changes.

McCoy is evil.

His solo on the Half Note version of Impressions is where the whole thing tops out. Nowhere to go but down from there.

Wasn't aware that there was an Impressions from the Half Note?

This is peak McCoy, for me:

[pamosmusic]

Wasn't aware that there was an Impressions from the Half Note?

This is peak McCoy, for me:

GLAD YOU ASKED.

… man that, too, is some smoking McCoy. How does anyone choose, really?

EDIT: love this one … and now that I’m listening again, he’s playing with the same pentatonic motif about halfway through that he keeps coming back to in the half note solo.

[BreckerFan]

Thank you both for blessing me with new McCoy. Now let's watch him destroy Green Dolphin Street.

Maybe we need a new thread just documenting McCoy shredding.

[pamosmusic]

Thank you both for blessing me with new McCoy. Now let's watch him destroy Green Dolphin Street.

Maybe we need a new thread just documenting McCoy shredding.

Yes a dedicated Peak McCoy thread.

[James W]

GLAD YOU ASKED.

… man that, too, is some smoking McCoy. How does anyone choose, really?

EDIT: love this one … and now that I’m listening again, he’s playing with the same pentatonic motif about halfway through that he keeps coming back to in the half note solo.

Awesome! I wonder why this hasn't been released like the One Down, One Up double-album has? Thanks very much for bringing this to our attention!

[BreckerFan]

Post your favorite McCoy Tyner recordings HERE

Edit: that was supposed to link lol. It's in the players section.

[Christian Miller]

McCoy a bloody lovely old school ballads player too

[pamosmusic]

Alright on onto the technique thing here. In my old age and newfound wisdom, I’ve been trying to think of things this way.

Rather than asking myself what I need to practice, I ask:

1. What do I want to sound like?
2. What are the components of that sound?
3. Which of those components am I missing? Which need some work?
4. How might I get better at those things?

Hopefully step 5 is building a practice routine? I don’t know. But we let the tail wag the dog a lot on this stuff. Better to put first things first, I think.

[jazznylon]

Alright on onto the technique thing here. In my old age and newfound wisdom, I’ve been trying to think of things this way.

Rather than asking myself what I need to practice, I ask:

1. What do I want to sound like?
2. What are the components of that sound?
3. Which of those components am I missing? Which need some work?
4. How might I get better at those things?

Hopefully step 5 is building a practice routine? I don’t know. But we let the tail wag the dog a lot on this stuff. Better to put first things first, I think.

Lets see if I can input

1. If I had to narrow it down to one thing it would be Doug Raney's solo on Mr. P.C. The whole solo
2. He uses a lot slides of mixed in with 8th note lines.
3. I don't use slides as often as he does while doing eight note lines. I find it hard to pull it off in a satisfactory way while improv.
4. Maybe start slow and build up speed while improv over time while incorporating more slides. And try to play along with the recording in tempo (or even faster tempo?)
5. Building a practice routine is probably the hardest part, maybe I should work specifically work on this for an hour everyday?

There are other musicians I would like to learn from by ear but yeah this could be my starting point.

[pamosmusic]

Lets see if I can input

1. If I had to narrow it down to one thing it would be Doug Raney's solo on Mr. P.C. The whole solo.

The plot thickens.

That solo is killer. Transcribe two or three lines from it. Learn them in a couple positions. What is he actually doing?

Scale runs? Arpeggios? Both? Can you turn those things into your scale practice? Can you copy his articulation when you do?

Theres loads in there.

Downside: none of it is in the modes of double harmonic.

Upside: none of it is at 400 bpm.

[jazznylon]

maybe forget about any "routines" and follow your instincts for a few months?

the raney solo is fantastic, you could spend *all* your practice time on it and reap huge rewards down the road. then there is also doug#s father who has a nice aebersold volume with very good solos, that many guiarists studied for the slides and articulations.

you could also immerse yourself in the works of rene thomas and pat martino, the two major influences on doug. just live in the raney universe for a few months. forget about that spider stuff, it's for kids. practice stuff you can use on the bandstand. listen, listen, listen.

Sounds good! Yeah I think I'm done with the spider and scale exercises as the gains I would get for it now would be very little. I also like the idea of working on chord solos inspired by Nelson Symonds who apparently can play chord solos as fast as people play lines (said so by Wes in an interview!). That Billy Bean solo on Straight no chaser is also my favorite. I have a lot of free time fortunately, so I can work on these things with no hurry. But this'll be later, in the meantime I'll just delve into Raney and learn more songs by ear (when I get my 10 string back)

[BreckerFan]

4. Maybe start slow and build up speed while improv over time while incorporating more slides. And try to play along with the recording in tempo (or even faster tempo?)

Don't worry so much about pushing the tempo. I think the goal is to play it along at tempo, but doing that implies 1. Clean execution 2. Listening to and matching his time feel 3. Listening to his sound production and playing with good sound 4. Playing with good articulation and dynamics. Accenting what he accents, etc 5. Making all of that feel good while you're doing it

These are all the little things that make a solo great, not just the speed. Playing a lot of notes isn't the hard part, playing them in a way that sounds musical, and ultimately in a way that expresses what you want to express, is. Speed can be part of that, but it's not all of it. Again I would recommend recording yourself and asking yourself if you sound like he does. And if you get to the point where you can do that and want to push things even faster, knock yourself out (although I think at that point you're ready to pick another solo and do the whole process again haha).

[jazznylon]

Don't worry so much about pushing the tempo. I think the goal is to play it along at tempo, but doing that implies 1. Clean execution 2. Listening to and matching his time feel 3. Listening to his sound production and playing with good sound 4. Playing with good articulation and dynamics. Accenting what he accents, etc 5. Making all of that feel good while you're doing it

These are all the little things that make a solo great, not just the speed. Playing a lot of notes isn't the hard part, playing them in a way that sounds musical, and ultimately in a way that expresses what you want to express, is. Speed can be part of that, but it's not all of it. Again I would recommend recording yourself and asking yourself if you sound like he does. And if you get to the point where you can do that and want to push things even faster, knock yourself out (although I think at that point you're ready to pick another solo and do the whole process again haha).

Yeah copying his articulation is really difficult. I find myself ignoring some of his articulation while only favoring the slides. But I should go back and fix it so I can get it perfect (particularly the fast slurs).

[djg]

[jazznylon]

Wow! He gets it better than I do! Impressive indeed. I shall definitely study this video in the coming days. Thanks

[pamosmusic]

Alright on onto the technique thing here. In my old age and newfound wisdom, I’ve been trying to think of things this way.

Rather than asking myself what I need to practice, I ask:

1. What do I want to sound like?
2. What are the components of that sound?
3. Which of those components am I missing? Which need some work?
4. How might I get better at those things?

Hopefully step 5 is building a practice routine? I don’t know. But we let the tail wag the dog a lot on this stuff. Better to put first things first, I think.

I guess to my own questionnaire:

1. For comping, I want colorful chords and sharp rhythms. For soloing, I want nice melodies, to hit the changes, and to bebop.
2. Important notes, color tones, small voicings, uncluttered. Short defined rhythms. On the improvising, it’s triads and well-chosen color notes, it’s all the bebop vocabulary and rhythmic feel.
3. My chord vocabulary isn’t huge, but more to the point, I could be more flexible with the voicings I have. I’m not terribly creative with my rhythms. I hit changes well but have a low ceiling on tempo. My bebop vocabulary is narrower than I would’ve thought. Not nothing, but not as flexible as I thought it was I think.
4. I’ve been getting in deep on Ed Bickert style rootless shell voicings. And transcribing some big band hits, per Mr B’s suggestion. I’ve been working on a Jim Hall solo and using it to work up some ideas for these tetrachord ideas I lifted from Jordan’s stuff. I’ve been trying to set a kind of foundation for some of Barry Harris’s stuff that I hope to get into as I shift some of the triad things to simmer.

[jazznylon]

I guess to my own questionnaire:

1. For comping, I want colorful chords and sharp rhythms. For soloing, I want nice melodies, to hit the changes, and to bebop.
2. Important notes, color tones, small voicings, uncluttered. Short defined rhythms. On the improvising, it’s triads and well-chosen color notes, it’s all the bebop vocabulary and rhythmic feel.
3. My chord vocabulary isn’t huge, but more to the point, I could be more flexible with the voicings I have. I’m not terribly creative with my rhythms. I hit changes well but have a low ceiling on tempo. My bebop vocabulary is narrower than I would’ve thought. Not nothing, but not as flexible as I thought it was I think.
4. I’ve been getting in deep on Ed Bickert style rootless shell voicings. And transcribing some big band hits, per Mr B’s suggestion. I’ve been working on a Jim Hall solo and using it to work up some ideas for these tetrachord ideas I lifted from Jordan’s stuff. I’ve been trying to set a kind of foundation for some of Barry Harris’s stuff that I hope to get into as I shift some of the triad things to simmer.

Very nice! I'm sure you'll reach your goals sometime as you're a great guitarist. I'm not terribly creative with my rhythm either but I got the book 'Modern Reading Text in 4/4' by drummer Louis Bellson. However I got stuck in the part where they introduced 16th note rhythms with ties, needless to say it got very complicated for me. The best I can do with that book now is work on eight note rhythms on a higher tempo.

Anywho another one of my extensor exercise bands broke today unfortunatedly as they have been used a lot not sure if I can find anything durable as I keep breaking them and replacing them eventually. Ah well in the meantime I'll just do rasgueados with one or both hands on someplace soft as doing these finger movements never let me down.