Looking for practice tips for this little "riff"

[RJVB]

(Hope this is the proper subforum!)

I've been working for a while now on William Bay's Prelude #5 (B minor) from his bundle of contemporary preludes, sonatas and nocturnes and there's one spot in particular which doesn't even seem that difficult but which I can't seem to get right the first time:

The main bottleneck here are the last 3 (of 5) notes shown. The entire bundle is written for "plectrum guitar" (aka archtop) but there are some that are interesting enough to incorporate in a CG repertoire. Anyway, this "run" is one of the few places where I think the jazz background of the composer shines through, so I'm using my thumb as if holding a plectrum and I use the same fingering for the last 2 8th note chords:



I use this fingering for those last 5 notes:

3.4.2 - 2 - 3.2.4 - 3.2.4 - 3.4.2

This usually derails on the forelast chord, sometimes only at the last, but sometimes already a chord earlier (Bflat dim? - 2 sharps at the key). Individually those last 2 shifts mostly go right, so I think there's some anticipation play here for not overshooting, keeping the right shape but also making that last fingering change without fail.

I think I've already tried to practice this in just about every manner I can think of, so let me just ask how would you practice this and see what comes up Thanks!

BTW: I also asked this on the Delcamp forum, so apologies to those who're also a member (and saw it) there.

[pauln]

The main bottleneck here are the last 3 (of 5) notes shown.

Did you mean to leave an attachment?

[RJVB]

Did you mean to leave an attachment?

Oops, fixed (I hope).

Actually, I linked to the image I'd already uploaded to the Delcamp forum, which worked for me because I am logged in there. The other way round works fine as far as I can tell ...

[pauln]

I'm not seeing fingering in what I'm looking at... what am I looking at?

The 4112 in the first measure is a fingering?
The "11" of 4112 means playing D and F (different frets in all positions) with the first finger?
Your fingering for the last five don't use your first finger?
The third of your five (" 2 3.2.4") has an extra 2 finger?

[RJVB]

Only 1 chord has fingering in that snippet of the (original) score, indeed. Not sure why that one, nor how else you'd finger it but, yes, the "1 1" means a partial barré with the index finger on the 3rd and 2nd strings. (Evidently that finger can also touch the 1st string.)

And yes, thanks, somehow I slipped a rogue '2' in the 3rd fingering indication. Normally I proofread better than that!

[pauln]

Only 1 chord has fingering in that snippet of the (original) score, indeed. Not sure why that one, nor how else you'd finger it but, yes, the "1 1" means a partial barré with the index finger on the 3rd and 2nd strings. (Evidently that finger can also touch the 1st string.)

And yes, thanks, somehow I slipped a rogue '2' in the 3rd fingering indication. Normally I proofread better than that!

How do you barre the first finger on strings 3 and 2 to play D and F with D at the 7th fret and F at the 6th fret?

[rpjazzguitar]

How do you barre the first finger on strings 3 and 2 to play D and F with D at the 7th fret and F at the 6th fret?

Prelude in B minor per the OP. F and C are therefore sharp.

[rpjazzguitar]

I played the chord before the single E as xx998x and then played the open E string. The next two are xxx656 and the same shape moved up. Finally xxx 11 12 10. I played those without the fourth finger (pinkie).

[RJVB]

The next two are xxx656 and the same shape moved up. Finally xxx 11 12 10. I played those without the fourth finger (pinkie).

Yes, there isn't really another choice for those, except which 3 fingers to use. I still think the main hurdle for me is the LH transition between the last two chords, regardless of whether I use the first 3 or the last 3 fingers (= with pinkie). With pinkie feels a little safer probably because that puts my smallest finger on the middle string. Plus I already have 2 fingers in place to play the notes that follow.

Here's a different fingering that requires only shorter position shifts:
Looking for practice tips for this little "riff" - Classical Guitar


It may actually be helping me to practice the passage with this very different fingering. I still avoid the open E string though but with this fingering I can get it by sliding just the index 2 frets down.

[emanresu]

I'd use 2.1.3, 2.1.3, 2.3.1 for those last 3 chords. Then the 2nd finger is securely sliding.
Dunno how fast it ought to be. If very fast, then yeah, it's athletics.

Would just train jumping from a to b, then from b to c as fast as possible.
More than 1 position change in a row in fast tempo is horrible on guitar - thats a curse.

But also, there is one neat method to smooth up position changes on classical guitar -
break the jump down to 5 actions.
1.play the 1st chord
2.release the tension but keep the fingers still on the chord
3.move with relaxed hand (in the most advanced way - the fingers should not touch the strings while moving to learn to avoid squeaks. Very much needed for classical guitar.)
4.adjust the fingers to the new chord but without tension <--- 3. and 4. can be happening at the same time.
5.play the new chord

Should do it slooowly and the main focus is the release part.
It takes months and more months for the hand to learn it so it becomes an automatic behaviour.
The difference is so subtle and practically "invisible" but surely helps a lot.

I have very rarely needed this for jazz because it's always possible to find a comfy version of a needed chord.
But in written classical pieces - omg. Without learning the relaxed state for that millisecond period while changing
positions between difficult chords can be even harmful in the long run.

[RJVB]

This piece wasn't written with classical guitar in mind, though it does seem more classical than "jazz" - speed is 86bpm which is still plenty fast for 2 8position shifts

But also, there is one neat method to smooth up position changes on classical guitar -
[...]
It takes months and more months for the hand to learn it so it becomes an automatic behaviour.

That's more or less how I do it, fortunately I still had the foundations of about 30 years of violin practice when I picked up the guitar. Of course position shifts are much shorter on a violin, and not usually in runs of double stops (chords) like here.

BTW, is there any reason this wouldn't be "how you do it" on non-classical guitar?

[emanresu]

BTW, is there any reason this wouldn't be "how you do it" on non-classical guitar?

I don't think there is such reason.
But the emphasize was on classical because the trouble is so much more real - cramping, stiff wrist and nasty squeaks,
high string action also worsens it.
On electric guitar with own ways to play, it is all much less problematic. Can get pretty far without any worry.

edit: this is why I switched to electric. Ocasionally I play classical still. Medium pieces. But it gets crazy hard with all sorts of technical
workouts that have very little to do with musicality.

[RJVB]

Ah, right, compared to electric. I only play acoustically, and this piece has a few chords that are definitely easier on nylon strings than on the 13-57 I have on my archtop.

[emanresu]

on the 13-57

[RJVB]

That's not so exceptional on acoustic archtops I'd say?!

(they're silk-and-steel strings btw, so a bit less tension than you might be expecting.)

[emanresu]

Well, I've tried 12... one day and decided that this is not the life I wanted.
11 forever.