-
Well you know what, Guthrie is probably about as well known as he can be for doing what he does. It's not the glory days of shred anymore - and Guthrie is rated highly as a rock/fusion player in both the US (AFAIK) and the UK. The problem is for him and talented younger players like Dan Quayle who work in a similar genre, is going beyond the guitar nerd circuit.
Originally Posted by ragman1
That said, Guthrie did work with Dizzie Rascal and a few other pop artists.
Incidentally, if we are talking about instrumental rock players Steve Vai made a speech about working to your strengths. It's not necessarily that useful being a dab hand at everything. In the end you need a focus.
So Vai is not an all-rounder. You wouldn't call him to lay down a few tracks of precise rhythm guitar (I'm not even convinced he'd be very good at some styles of rhythm). You call him to do the Vai thing. In this sense, I think he more in common with, say, Bill Frisell. Great musician, specific approach. He's a stylist.
Guthrie's sheer facility makes it a little hard to focus on what his musical statement actually is, perhaps.
-
11-02-2016 07:37 PM
-
I think that's what I meant really, jack of all trades, maybe master of most of them, but not really belonging anywhere in particular. Originally Posted by christianm77
-
I've had a similar response to some players who (to my mind) have an overly processed sound. The guitar sings, they're fast and fluid, it all seems effortless, and flawless. But also, I'm afraid, a bit lifeless. Originally Posted by ragman1
-
Yup, I've never been a fan of that sound at all. I think you get bored with 'ethereal' very quickly and I don't see the attraction at all.
-
Originally Posted by ragman1
When I read that, an old Pretenders song popped into my head:
"I was feeling kind of ethereal,
'Cause I'm precious.
I had my eyes on your Imperial..."
Probably three-finger technique too, though not anything that would impress Wes.
[Language alert on the video. From the first album, which I played a lot way back when.]
-
Yeah, I played it a lot too, the first Pretenders album. I couldn't decide who should be my new girlfriend at the time, Chrissie Hynde or Debbie Harry.... Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
-
Ha! I was a much bigger fan of Chrissie at the time, but years later I thought several Blondie songs were much better than I initially realized. "Hanging On The Telephone" always thrilled me though. Originally Posted by princeplanet
Yeah, I played it a lot too, the first Pretenders album. I couldn't decide who should be my new girlfriend at the time, Chrissie Hynde or Debbie Harry....
As for the Pretenders, James Honeyman-Scott was a good (rock) guitarist. Very tasty. Shame he died so young.
-
Yeah I loved the honest production on that record, Chris Thomas if I recall... Cool Tele tones and tasty playing, I was hooked as soon as I heard it. Was a sucker for a good riff, and Top 40 / early MTV was full of 'em, The Cars, Cheap Trick, infact the whole early pop side of post-punk (before it went too "synthy" and "poncey" Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
) was full of interesting guitar! No other era could have produced Adrian Belew, for example....
-
I grew up with Talking Heads.... Lots of Belew madness on Remain in Light. Fripp plays guitar on I Zimbra - I think he produced Fear of Music?.... Cool scratchy layered post-punk guitar in general... David Byrne and Jerry Harrison laid down some interesting guitar parts: Originally Posted by princeplanet
Yeah I loved the honest production on that record, Chris Thomas if I recall... Cool Tele tones and tasty playing, I was hooked as soon as I heard it. Was a sucker for a good riff, and Top 40 / early MTV was full of 'em, The Cars, Cheap Trick, infact the whole early pop side of post-punk (before it went too "synthy" and "poncey") was full of interesting guitar! No other era could have produced Adrian Belew, for example....
I hated it when I was 7, but grew to love it :-)Last edited by christianm77; 11-03-2016 at 12:02 PM.
-
Just imagine if Belew knew enough Jazz to join Miles' band, circa "Remain in Light " era...
-
How much jazz would he need to know? I think Belew would have fit right into the mid '70s Miles sound. However, they already had Pete Cosey, so hey ho... Originally Posted by princeplanet
-
Blondie is my all time favourite. I did not particularly like Maria and all that "come back" fuss.
Precious, Tattooed Love Boys, (The) Wait .... pheeewwww, yeah!!! What a band. I had no objections on 2000 Miles and I've Got You Babe, either. Like with Blondie, I did not buy into latest efforts. Can't even remember the songs.
Talking Heads, they were kind of huge in my world, for a while, with Psycho Kilker, Once in a Life Time ... up to Road to Nowhere, but somehow I forgot abiut them pretty fast.
Similar with The Cure, ... Standing on the beach with a gun in my hand ...was trully great, but before I turned around they've sank with Friday I'm in Love ..
VladanMovies BlogSpot
-
Sure, it probably still would have been amazing, just think it would have been more amazing still if he had quartal chops or something along with his almost atonal menagerie of animal noises and his angular, "bendy" excursions. Never really dug Cosey.... Originally Posted by christianm77
-
Definitely an early '80s guitar vibe here... Barry Finnerty FLAAAAAANGE YOU ONIONS.
-
I've still got a couple of my old Talking Heads LPs, you guys are making me want to dig them out again!
-
I've only skimmed the thread but...
To maximize picking speed, learning your scales with three notes per string is the only thing that makes sense. I cn't imagine how you would pull that off with only three fingers.
-
Belew's "Twang Bar King". (Second sold album, IIRC).
As for '70s Miles, none of that ever did anything for me. Frankly, I no longer own anything of his with a guitar on it!
-
2handband, Originally Posted by 2handband
Well, if you're coming in from a rock background you might think that. But after you've studied jazz guitar for awhile you'll come to realize that jazz really isn't about just playing scales or even speed. Soloing in jazz is about acquiring established jazz vocabulary and learning to build melodies that address the original melody of the song as well as the chord changes.
However, how you approach it also depends on where your interests lie. If you're looking to play Swing, Bebop, Hard Bop or Soul Jazz, you'll want to focus on being able to nail and embelish chord tones. If you're more into the Modal music that developed in the wake of Kind of Blue you'll want to focus more on scales and modes. Regardless of where your interests lie the important thing is learning to play melodically and rhythmically.
If you take the time to listen to some of the jazz guitarists mentioned in this thread you'll hear what we're talking about. Also, to reiterate what I've said before, the most of the players mentioned upstream played predominantly with three fingers, not exclusively.
Regards,
JeromeLast edited by monk; 02-28-2018 at 03:25 PM.
-
Did I land on Tiger Beat?
-
Hey, we're jazzers---we can land on any beat! ;o) Originally Posted by ronjazz
But it might be nice to get back to the subject of three finger technique.
Perhaps we could choose a few stellar (stella?) examples of it (-video, so we can all see what's happening) and see what we can suss out about the subtleties.
Here's a Herb Ellis solo performance with some close-up camera work.
Once upon a time, I posted this as an example of Herb NOT being a three-finger player because he uses his pinky a fair amount. But now I've re-thought things and now see it differently.
You can see his thumb over the neck a lot, and what almost always goes with this, a turning of the hand. (The base of the index finger is much closer to the neck than is the base of the pinky. The classical approach is to have the fingers more straight up and down, parallel to the frets, with the base of the pinky just as close to the bottom of the neck as the base of the index is.)
Well, that's enough to start with, I think.
In the still from this video you can see how the pinky is curled---Charlie Christian did that too. It's not always like that but it clearly indicates a non-classical orientation of the hand vis-a-vis the guitar neck.Last edited by MarkRhodes; 11-04-2016 at 09:59 AM.
-
Herb seems to use pinky in certain cases only... pinky is 'a little helper' for him..)))
But wrist position is very 'three finger style'
Juat btw... I think 'thumb over the neck' does not necessarily mean truning of han and pinky going down...You can see his thumb over the neck a lot, and what almost always goes with this, a turning of the hand.
It depends on the neck and hand size I think too..
I play a lot with thumb over the neck but my pinky is always up there
Actually I think for thin profile neck it does not make much difference...
To me Sco's left hand is a good example of non-classical 4-finger approach, very natural, looking very authentic for electric and for jazz/blues style...
I would say he plays 4-fingers in a way they play 3-fingers...)))
-
You can see his thumb over the neck a lot, and what almost always goes with this, a turning of the hand.
I did this vid for other purposes... I have noting else now
But you can see that even when thet thumb is over the neck it does not effect pinky or wrist much...
I would not be able to do it on classical guitar, the profile is much thicker
-
Thanks for the reply, Jerome. Truth is that having spent most of my adult life playing guitar for money one of my main goals has always been to maximize my versatility. I always think in terms of melody, with a primary focus on chord tones but I tend to still approach that from within scale shapes. And I am a heavy advocate of three note per string scales for the simple reason that I can do more things in that context than any other way. Whether it's slow and melodic or full-on neoclassical shred it's all accessible from that same three-note-per string pattern. Even your arpeggios are mostly notes from the scale you're using, so you can more often that not work those from within that same fingering. Originally Posted by monk
I would suggest that an approach to soloing should ideally be more multi-faceted than what you suggest. Learn every scale there is, and arpeggios in as many inversions as possible. For every chord you're playing over you should be aware of what notes are in that chord, where those notes lie within the scale you are using, what other scales would work over that chord, what extensions can be added in the context of key, and all of this information needs to be sufficiently internalized that you don't have to think about it much. The whole idea is maximizing your options. This becomes doubly necessary if you're working; the choices I made when I sat in with the blues band last night (yes that really happened; three 60 minute sets of nothing but 12 bar progressions somebody kill me right now) are very different than the ones I would make playing hard rock. I find that the three note-per-string patterns give me the most mileage for the least learning curve... and are an absolute must if I need to play fast.
Gene
-
I find 3 notes per string to be a hack, and a Rock one at that. Most guys that commit to that play "samey" lines, diatonic triplets at shred speed etc... I'd be surprised if any serious Jazz players adopt that crutch, except for an isolated occasion. Originally Posted by 2handband
There are thousands of ways to diatonically and chromatically embellish chord tones, and only some of them vaguely resemble "scales" of any kind, none the least the 3 nps kind....
Jazz players end up figuring out a technique to express the lines they hear in their head. They don't learn an "easy" technique first, and try to make music through that! That's what most Rock/Blues/Metal shredders do! 
-
I agree. I think you have to develop flexibility in jazz - 2/3/4 notes a string, whatever - just learn your positions over the neck. Originally Posted by princeplanet
I find 3 notes per string to be a hack, and a Rock one at that. Most guys that commit to that play "samey" lines, diatonic triplets at shred speed etc... I'd be surprised if any serious Jazz players adopt that crutch, except for an isolated occasion.
There are thousands of ways to diatonically and chromatically embellish chord tones, and only some of them vaguely resemble "scales" of any kind, none the least the 3 nps kind....
Jazz players end up figuring out a technique to express the lines they hear in their head. They don't learn an "easy" technique first, and try to make music through that! That's what most Rock/Blues/Metal shredders do!
Thing is, we are rarely concerned with the extreme speed used in shred guitar - but what we are interested in his maintaining flexibility, accuracy and swing in 8th notes at 240 bpm and up with all kinds of combinations for the right hand. That's not a trivial technical problem - but it's not about optimising runs for speed alone.
A guy who did occasionally use 3nps shred style playing - Django! (Of course ;-))Last edited by christianm77; 11-05-2016 at 05:11 AM.
Reply With Quote
Moffa Mithra
Today, 08:31 AM in For Sale