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Cool. Are the changes the same as the ones in the Roberts book? Because these are intentionally not Cherokee changes, but are more a set of improvisational devices on the outward form of Cherokee. All good approaches.
Originally Posted by AllanAllen
If you're getting a workout, especially by ear and off book, it's a win win.
The first time I did this, I wished there'd been a programmable backing track. The next time I did it, I was glad I went through the laying down tracks process because it gave me a better feeling of how chords, ears and guitar work together. We all benefit from the deep dive into our skill set, some benefit from line craft, some will find they're ready for playing on an internalized set of changes (memorized and off book), and some will just put a metronome on and use eighth notes combined with chords to put everything together.
Know what's important to you and play, play and play! I do think it's better to sharpen the skill sets that are relevant to you know, and keep an open mind. Chord craft is a different set of challenges. They'll be waiting when you're ready to take them on, believe me.
Have fun!
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03-04-2023 09:44 PM
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The extensions are simplified, but that’s it. This is fun after I decided to suck it up and slog through it for a few days. I think this week will be easier since it’s just a key change. Maybe I’ll end up recording my own chords.
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I've been playing Cherokee changes, but I've looked at the book and it's not quite Cherokee changes.
My improv lines are slowly improving, but I keep repeating lines that I've decided sound ok to my ears. I'm not outlining the changes enough, that's the biggest problem and I'm still playing at an extremely slow tempo.
Lots of work to be done, but good stuff.
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Setting priorities.
Nice to have a pretty open expanse of time tonight to work on this. One thing that's revealing itself to me is there are many things that mess up my time: thinking too much about where I'm going next, not making the change to the next chord on time, hitting a note that sounds really bad (DOH! is always going to mess up the flow of time), bad technique, chewing myself out for having a bad quality of sound... all these things conspire to keep us from playing well.
One thing about this exercise is when I'm doing it right, the FIRST priority is just keeping the notes moving; steady eighth notes. I'm going to be doing this for four iterations and 10 minutes apiece so don't sweat the little things. When your hands get the coordination of steady eighths, no matter how accurate they are, keeping the flow going is step one.
I'm putting that as my baseline, then adding the other considerations after that. Once my hands work together to play steady eighths (I'm not swinging them at this point, or not for this stage) I can hear more.
Pick your area to master and be true to it. Then add new elements.
That's what's working for me.
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Week 2 Day 2
Just the first four measures. My process right now is to sort of pre-compose what I am going to play as I don't feel that great just improvising on the fly yet. After I work through the first 8 measures I want to move on to other parts of the form. Also, I kind of stumbled by accident on playing an Ebm7 arpeggio over the Abm7 and liked the sound of it. I want to dig into that approach more of using arpeggios of chord substitutions as a basis for improvising.
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I'm a fan of the B7 arpeggio over Abm7.
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Week 2, Day 2 - Key change kicked my butt yesterday, what with less familiar locations on the fingerboard to try to process. Maybe I'll do better today ... lol
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Yes, I'm struggling with these changes too, I don't really know the notes well enough in these keys and I don't want to just play patterns. Originally Posted by Topper Roth
Luckily, the B section is easier than the A section.
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I haven't made it to the B section yet. Good to hear it's easier Originally Posted by GuyBoden
Yes, I'm struggling with these changes too, I don't really know the notes well enough in these keys and I don't want to just play patterns.
Luckily, the B section is easier than the A section.
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I thought it would be interesting to document where I'm at from time to time... hoping to see improvement over time.
What I'm focusing on is trying to turn my analytics and critics off in my mind and to relax and get in the meditative state that David talked about.
Not quite meditative yet but getting a bit more relaxed. Also noted that I'm breaking the rule of no slides or pull-offs, and my right hand is not doing what I want. The equivalent of alternative picking for fingerpicking would probably be don't use the same finger twice in a row. And I'm using my thumb too much.
So, all in all it has been useful exercise to make the video.
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Nicely done. You made it through the whole form. Sounded good. What tempo was that? It sounded faster than 60. Originally Posted by fep
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First, congrats for the notes and the courage to document it! Fingerstyle, in my book is all bets off. But I do avoid slides and hammer ons myself because if I'm not doing justice to the run of notes that accentuate the harmony in some way, they 'comfort' me into things that deflect me from driving intelligently, if you get what I'm saying. I use fingerstyle but I pick up and down so that's not any help for you. Originally Posted by fep
I do notice that sometimes you anticipate the approach of a stronger chord and your ideas are stronger then, but on changes you're not hearing, you're probing with stepwise lines. I think as you entrust your ear to hearing more, you'll naturally find more satisfaction from creating interesting lines.
Just something to envision and look forward to. We have a lot of time to build an approach.
Nice doing!
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The B section is a study on taking some kind of idea, hearing and playing it over 4 bars, then moving it to the next tonal area. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
They're II V I's but just for kicks, don't think of them that way. Get a footing in the tonality by ear and work on making shapes with the pitches... ups, downs, waves, anything. Let your ear find the notes that feel good. Then on to the next 4 measures (which is known as a SYSTEM).
This piece is like a tonal section A and another mini area B where you play with different keys that are independent yet drop down to get to. It's fun.
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Originally Posted by Topper Roth
Great opportunity to get the fingerboard better, right?
Each of these I chords is a place where you can anchor a position and all of those places are legitimate places to play melody notes. Have you spent much time getting to know your fingerboard? Once you can visualize the way the notes fit together, and spending a little time familiarizing yourself with where the notes are to your tactile fretting hand, it'll be easy to make melody from the notes available.
If you had a position that became familiar to you last week, find the grounding from a new root, and apply the scale position to it. Work with one area first, then venture outside of that to adjoining positions.
This 20 week program can also become a "Let's get to know the fingerboard" process. Melodies are using your ear to play the notes that sound good. To do that, find your root and the scale notes that connect to that root.
Patience and persistence.
Being able to visualize where you can go really helps too.
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David, for some reason, I am not grasping your colored diagrams of the f/b with Roman numerals. (I know you showed it once before.) I assume the numerals are meant to represent points in the diatonic spectrum, related to each other across the strings, but ...? Could you give me an anchor or a place to start with this. Thanks.
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AllanAllen tells me that the Roman numerals are scale tones. Thanks - so that would map things out for the key of Eb/Cm, right? But obviously, I think, you need a new/different "map" when the key/tone center changes. That's one of the shifts I have trouble making ...
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I deleted my comment because it's not my chart and scale tones might be thinking about it the wrong way. I started a big dumb conversation on pitch collection vs scale someplace else. I still fail to see the difference in the "F pitch collection" and the "F major scale" as presented in the 5 fingerings (aka CAGED system).
Anyway, best to let Jimmy Blue Note reply.
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SO glad you asked. I didn't want to use up distracting bandwidth on something if it's something taken as a given, but it's foundationally important and an essential way to the way I play, navigate and teach. So I'm grateful it's new to you. Originally Posted by Topper Roth
Let me put it this way: We all have an air guitarist in us somewhere. It's tactile, it's sensual, it's spacial and it's run on pitch and movement. It's NOT a realm of letters, flat and sharp signs. It's a realm of lines run on pitches and the expressive gravity of harmony. That's the way we feel music.
Roman numeral is the direct nomenclature that puts a literary language on pitch. Chords go up the scale I II- III- IV V7... and that's the knowledge our ears hear whether we know the names or not. It's why I IV V permeates rock music all over.
When you hear music, you are hearing the movement of chords and feeling where they come is listening. Knowing where the are and where they're going is playing music. Roman numerals are what you hear. If you can't distinguish a I chord from a VI minor, there's what you need to get into your sonic cartographer if you're going to air guitar on a real instrument.
The way we learn by letters, is Absolute orientation. You learn a Bb is sixth string, 6th fret. D is fifth 5th... but when you play it and somebody hears it, they say I to III (in their ear anyway).
The map there says Find Bb on your guitar... in Cherokee, that is I and your map now has I located all over the fingerboard and you know where ALL your other chords are. Change to Db this week, your I chord will be moved to another location on the fingerboard RELATIVELY but the map is the same.
Know the map and you know the entire guitar in 12 keys.
There are strategies for getting to know the map so it's not overwhelming but in some way, you've got to learn it.
And the Arabic numeral chart... though it looks like the roman numeral chart, that's how you make chords, that's how you 'see' a scale so you can jump effortlessly from octave to octave, see melody so you can form contours, create extensions and chord colours effortlessly. That's the power of the note map. That will give you the scale for any chord you centre yourself on.
It's a zillion times faster to KNOW your notes and chords by ear, and to play from that knowledge. A zillion times more natural than clinging to scale and lick patterns you internalized way back. The map is the way you learn to train your ear on the guitar and it's the way you create possibilities with a rock solid knowledge of where those sounds live, how they flow and what your fingers need to do to realize the unimagined.
I think it's worth the effort to at least be aware of the map. Once it's internalized, your aural imagination has the means for your fingers. Once you can hear it, you can play it.
As with anything, take it or leave it. But it's been the foundation of my Air Guitar and it's essential for my ability to play counterpoint.
Ask questions about it if it's not clear. Please.
I can NOT overemphasize the fact that a knowledgeable ear is your greatest single asset if you're an improvisor. More than ANYTHING else you learn, it's the language of the ear that will take you the entire journey.
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(Yeah, I meant Db, not Eb ...)
OK, thanks for that in-depth description/explanation. I'll work on internalizing the "map" ...
Week 2, Day 3: today, I found that playing a minor 7 arpeggio from the root as my first move on many of the chord sequences/"cells" in the progression made it much easier for my ear and fingers to complete the "cell" with something that didn't sound too bad lol.
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If you haven't explored spread triads (also called open triads as opposed to close or closed triads), I've found that fluency in those can be a strong springboard into melody. Originally Posted by Topper Roth
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David's second diagram in post #89 is how I like to visualize the fretboard. But I see chord grips with intervals and scale superimposed on top or the grip. Some grips I really have that connection, like the "E form", for example a G bar chord on the third fret and all the variations of dominant, altered, minor, m7, m6, maj7 etc. Other grips I'm not as fluent with, like the "D form" which would be a G chord with the index finger on the 5th fret.
When it comes to scales I'm less familiar with, like the altered scale and the lydian dominant scale, I'm only comfortable with them over the "E form" chord grip. This is an area for me to work on. The "E Form" grip I visualize for the altered scale is a G7#5, 3.x.3.4.4.1. That chord is very similar to the Db9#11, x.4.3.4.4.1, so I can use the same ideas and notes for that which by extension makes me good to go with the lydian dominant of the "A Form" grip.
I like to be aware of the location of the intervals, I think this geographical knowledge of the fretboard simplifies the process of teaching your ear to hear the intervals.
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Believe it or not, open triads are not something I have ever learned about or even heard of - I guess I need to catch up ... I started messing around with them a little bit today and I liked the results.
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Db Cherokee done and in the bag, I'm playing in one position, learning my new 7 string across the neck, it's not very musical, but I can play/hear the Key centres at 72bmp. I'm not posting any clips as it's embarrassing, at the moment at least, I'm not a confident person.
Enjoying the group.
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For a bit of Cherokee inspiration. Keep practising and we will all be this fast in 20 weeks.
Just joking.......................
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He may be focusing on very high tempo settings, but there's good usable information. Take what you want, but note that he says work at your own top speed and have a firm foundation of your own fundamentals. That's why we're here.
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