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I think from now on we may start thinking about pick technique in a slightly different way….
Alternate picking to my mind is not a technique in itself - it’s an objective. There’s a few ways this can be achieved.
It can be a bit more complicated; for instance I see ‘gypsy picking’ as a combination of a specific technique with picking direction parameters. The actual technique is floating hand rest stroke picking.
And so on. I think as guitarists we tend to focus on the result/objective rather than the biomechanics which is maybe why so many players hit a plateau.
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04-01-2022 05:04 AM
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I'll get my coat.
Originally Posted by KingKong
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To this day I find that Joe Pass (and others) thing about using the tiniest pick possible so odd. With a down rest stroke style, I find it all too easy to accidentally mute the picked string if I choke up much, with right hand fingers getting mashed against the strings. I'm sticking with good ol' Fender heavies, thanks.
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Same, tbf to Pass he kind of admits that its a bit weird himself on the same vid I posted earlier. Originally Posted by timmer
I've also never got why u get people like e.g. Brian May who always plays with a silver sixpence do what they do..... surely they're just making life difficult for themselves! A standard plastic pick, not too soft and not too hard is what I find easiest to play with.
There is or course the argument that using a particular type of pick is helpful in getting a certain kind of sound. U probably can't argue with that as the pick choice does change the attack of the note.
Horses for courses of course, every man do his thing a little way different.
One thing I've noticed from reading about many of the 'great players' is that a lot of them seem to switch to just fingers at some point in their career, Barney Kessel and Jeff Beck are two I seem to remember, and 8 think in their case it was for sound reasons over technique.
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;I've been trying to perfect alt picking for a while, but you can't forget that you still have to contend with the LH. I forgot about that for a few days, and was freaked out to find myself scuffling like mad to solo with Ralph Patt's Backing Tracks.
My LH problem straightened itself out by just playing for about 30 minutes, but it got me very frustrated to think that after all that work on my picking technique, I was still struggling to play the tunes that are above 300bpm.
I thought about it for a while and realized what I neglected to practice concerning my LH.
Tonight, when I had a solo on "Groove Merchant" with the band, I was able to get to the stuff in my head with no difficulty whatsoever. Big relief...
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100 Originally Posted by sgcim
;I've been trying to perfect alt picking for a while, but you can't forget that you still have to contend with the LH. I forgot about that for a few days, and was freaked out to find myself scuffling like mad to solo with Ralph Patt's Backing Tracks.
My LH problem straightened itself out by just playing for about 30 minutes, but it got me very frustrated to think that after all that work on my picking technique, I was still struggling to play the tunes that are above 300bpm.
I thought about it for a while and realized what I neglected to practice concerning my LH.
Tonight, when I had a solo on "Groove Merchant" with the band, I was able to get to the stuff in my head with no difficulty whatsoever. Big relief...
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As Brian’s an old school rock player (mostly three fingers and hammer ons/pull offs and not much ‘technical’ picking) consistent picking of lines is much less of a consideration. I think the principle use of the sixpence is in creating a very characteristic attack or the note and also allowing easy access to upper harmonics. Originally Posted by KingKong
This works in synergy with his amp choice, pickup choices etc. And his playing has a very unique quality which is famously hard to replicate… the attack on the note is a big part of that.
UK blues boom players used upstrokes often for a similar reason, to bring out the upper harmonics of the note. They were very attentive to tone and vocality.
Jazz guitarists are more interested in the fundamental and an even attack. You have Wes as the other end of the spectrum.
Some players don’t take the easy option because they prefer the sound of the more difficult option even if it limits them in other ways. I find that quite interesting.
The main reason I like ‘edge picking’ (like Benson a little bit) is the sound.
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yeah I hate jazz IIIs Originally Posted by timmer
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Maybe people saw Troy's clip of his wife on Instagram where he get her to play at 200 bpm in a matter of minutes. Troy argues based on several studies that 200 bpm, and even above that is a speed all humans are easily capable of (i.e. not in a matter of years, months or even weeks). Incorrect mechanics more than anything else will prevent those speeds.
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Taste and good judgement will prevent those speeds.
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Or fear... Originally Posted by Litterick
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Update on my plectrum technique: over the past week I've been focusing on this to the neglect of other aspects of my musicianship owing to the fact that I'd overlooked a part of it; on this video at around 4:24 Grady advises to remove the knuckles from the lower strings, away from the body of the guitar:
... but this is something that I hadn't been doing (that is to say, I had been resting my right hand fingers on the strings) and having tried it, all of a sudden things became difficult again, but now, having spent the past few days as I say intensively practising it, I'm making/have made progress.
From quite some time ago I've advocated using downstrokes for downbeats and upstrokes for upbeats. But my encounter with Grady's work has convinced me to jettison that, at least at this stage. I know there are players whose double-escape techniques enable them to do just that (e.g. Molly Tuttle) but first I think I need to master some more basic techniques like the upstroke-escape one in the above video, and this means, if I understand it correctly, the downstroke might not necessarily be on the downbeat.
This is complex stuff. I still generally give myself time in my practice regimen to 'just play' over a backing track of a standard, but it's difficult to do this without reverting to old habits of string-hopping. I think the thing to do would be to assign a duration e.g. 15 minutes to improvise lines in a rubato tempo over a particular chord change with the proviso of only using an even number of notes per string; or strictly speaking, to only include an even number of picked notes per string, since I am aware that some players use legato to make their lines work which might not have done had they picked all the notes. I admit, a lot of this info about plectrum technique I am still coming to terms with! I'm still getting my head round the notion of having to assemble a vocabulary of ideas that tick all the necessary boxes so that they're good technique-wise. I know Eric Johnson uses string-hopping in parts, though. But, for those of us who are not naturally technically gifted, an awful lot of conscious work is necessary before the technique becomes good and one can 'just play' without thinking about it...
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rock guys often say bpm but without specifying subdivisions? (I bring it up because 200bpm means 8ths at that tempo usually in the jazz community .. ) Originally Posted by m_d
Anyway presumably you mean 16th notes at 200; if so this is impressive indeed, and I’d enjoy a link to the video as I haven’t seen it. It’s cool that basically anyone should be able to achieve this and to me actually quite unsurprising. Is this (as I assume) raw single string alternate speed or does it include string crossing mechanics?
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that’s a better reason than poor technique Originally Posted by Litterick
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It can drive you mad. The YouTube is packed with experts on the right hand. They talk in forceful tones about holding the key to unlocking your technique, and similar dramatic phrases. Many of them are charlatans, I suspect. Originally Posted by James W
Bill Frisell once said he paid no attention to what his right hand was doing. I followed his lead and my picking improved immensely.
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As someone who's spent a long time trying to improve their rock technique and only recently started focussing on jazz, what's striking to me is how many rock YouTube videos are focussed on technique whereas the vast majority of jazz videos seem to be focussed on making music. I used to think that if I stopped concentrating on speed and instead went after melody, I was somehow giving up on 'shred', but now I see that that melody is a much more fruitful and enjoyable use of my time on the instrument.
And yes, it can quite literally drive you mad: I heard of two people following a particular picking technique that wound up spending some quality alone time away from society at large.
All that being said, I book I found useful is Troy Stetina's (yes, another Troy!) Speed Mechanics For Lead Guitar. Despite, the title, the focus is far less on specific mechanics than, eg, Troy Grady's videos. But the book contains many valuable exercises for improving left and right-hand technique, albeit with a heavy focus on rock. His first chapter is purely about legato and left-hand technique. His second begins with a single-string exercise where he advises you not to proceed until you can do it cleanly at 160bpm or more (all timings assume 16th notes.) In my own experience, it's not too difficult to tremolo pick at 160 bpm on a single string. But as soon as you try and fret notes cleanly and in sync at that speed, it becomes way more difficult. This is before we start worrying about crossing strings and inside/outside picking etc. etc.
Earlier in this thread, somebody suggested Donna Lee was the fastest tune likely to get called in a jam session. That's around 230 jazz bpm; 115 rock bpm. Technically tricky, but certainly not impossible after a bit of work. It's one thing to play known passages at that speed, but I'd be absolutely overjoyed if I could improvise lines that quickly.
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Today, has been better - I am mostly back to my normal practice schedule. Originally Posted by Litterick
I don't think Grady is a charlatan. Rather than a prescriptive approach, his is descriptive i.e. 'these are the ways many people play the guitar correctly' rather than 'you must do this' - and even things that he would say to avoid e.g. string-hopping, he admits some players like Eric Johnson have used.
I don't think forgetting about the right-hand and hoping for the best is something I intend to do! Having said that, I also don't intend to obsess over tremoloing and one-string exercises at 160 BPM for hours on end either. I guess the crux of the issue is: how does one assimilate Grady's observations into a jazz guitarist's practice? It's tricky because those observations are empirical reality so they need to be reconciled with the kind of stuff I want to do e.g. continuous scale and arpeggio exercises, where the number of notes per string varies quite a bit.
I think Grady is good because he is someone who is not a guitar-technique-savant, by which I mean someone who unconsciously managed to get an amazing technique - if you watch his Cracking The Code videos, you'll see how he consciously discovered stuff about technique. Contrast this to someone like Guthrie Govan, one of whose books I have, and he is unaware of the many issues surrounding plectrum-technique, because he is such a savant in that area!
At the moment I am toying in my head whether to start dabbling with Gypsy-guitar picking. Also, it is apparent to me the extent to which composing licks and phrases within the strictures of a particular picking style might be necessary to develop a vocabulary.
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Ideally, a good practice schedule would include both technique and melody-making. For technique, yes it can drive someone mad, I know from experience, but I don't feel entirely unjustified for doing that because all I want is to be able to do is 'make' certain tempos comfortably. It's not like I've already comfortably achieved shredding scales at 200 BPM semiquavers and am obsessing over going even faster. It's still early days since I last switched back to using a plectrum - a fact I have to remind myself of. Originally Posted by CliffR
Thanks for the tip. I have one of Chris Brook's books on alternate picking; it's not too difficult for me to do semiquaver bursts at 160BPM and sync it with my left-hand, perhaps because I have a good left-hand. I was thinking earlier how guitar shredding is quite a bit of a simpler thing to tackle than jazz improv which to do convincingly requires more intricate and complex use of the plectrum, just like in Donna Lee. Originally Posted by CliffR
Me too! But the ability to playing comfortably at that speed is a large part of it - a prerequisite, obviously. I recall Herbie Hancock saying in his autobiography how to get into playing fast tunes he'd first compose a solo over the changes. Originally Posted by CliffR
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At least some jazz players have spent time thinking about and practicing technique in some depth
but in general I think if you can hear what you are trying to play you stand a much better chance of being able to play it
if ain’t broke don’t fix it
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Of course technique is about more than just speed, like tone, articulation, economy of motion. I harken back to those childhood piano lessons, being encouraged to relax the hand and let it find the natural curved position...let the weight of your arms assist with the tone production.
This is the comfortable feel I get with the gypsy influenced approach. I have no interest in reverting to my old style, neutral slant alternate picking with no doubt massive string hopping. But not because it would be slower. Because it is very tiring and inefficient to have to constantly flail around like that.
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maybe I missed something, but not a word about expression?
Technique should be about expression, not about the speed. (mechanic, that is about the speed). When I think technique, I mean, how accurately the musician capable to execute his musical intent, regarding the volume and nuances of sound quality of the notes to finally get a musical sentence/statement.
So seeing Troy videos I wondering, OK, that is impressive but in jazz terms sounds like crap. Where is the feeling, where is the relation to the singing human?
Do not ge me wrong, I am a big fan of Al Di Meola, and Paco de Lucia, where the speed and virtuosity are integral part of expression itself. Not talking about McLaughlin, who is the master of givin soul of the speed. But those are not typical jazz examples.
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My philosophy - and I think it also Troy's view - is that if we had technique pedagogy dialled in in the way that it is in piano, violin etc, it wouldn't be such a big deal. For instance, in classical music mastering a piece technically is like the first step on a road towards musical mastery. Being able to accurately play the notes of piano sonata does not mean you can play the sonata. Originally Posted by Gabor
OTOH there's still a mystique guitar circles about chops, and if Troy's aim is to demystify this and open up access to high level pick technique, he is in my opinion fighting the good fight. It's reasonable to want a good technique, it's a foundation. It also true that some guitarists have bad or ineffective technique - knowing how to fix it is useful.
Technique is also something that can be quantified and examined scientifically, so from that perspective it's an easy problem and it should really be sorted. It can be disassociated from other aspects of music making and I think it can often be helpful to do so. Troy's perspective on the problem has been in general a very narrow focus on - how to get across the strings. I appreciate this.
Of course, in rock guitar technique is frequently confused with the ability to play guitar very very fast (which is a manifestation of good technique but not the same thing).To be fair to Troy he does point out to (his largely rock guitar) following that something that are not so fast can in fact be technically very difficult to play. I think for guitarists playing music written by guitarists that may be less evident most of the time than in jazz or classical music (obviously there are exceptions.)
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Speed, the ability to make tempos comfortably, is a necessary aspect of any jazz musician, I'd say. Perhaps people asked - or still ask - where is the feeling or relation to human singing regarding Coltrane's sheets of sound, but I'd wager these kinds of questions more commonly crop up among guitar players, with their ludicrous 'feel vs. technique' debates. Originally Posted by Gabor
I don't think that Troy's videos do sound crap in 'jazz terms' whatever they are. I love Jim Hall but I mostly love players of whatever instrument whose technical ability enables them a wider palette of rhythms, where they can double time etc. I am not keen on Michael Angelo Batio, but it was interesting seeing his technique of two-way pick slanting; I think in this day and age any reasonable jazz guitarist should be curious about these things (unless of course they're an exclusively fingerstyle player). Speed is good for creating excitement and rhythmic vitality, and is something saxophonists and pianists would take for granted - why not guitarists, though, I wonder...
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Just for the record, I did not say that speed is not required for jazz guitarist. My point was that mechanic and technique should be differentiated, mechanic for speed, technique for music.
My other point was, that technique should aware how the sound "sounds" and a method which exclusively focus on effectiveness and speed is completely disregards this aspect.
Christian mentioned classical music concept, and interestingly what I was trying to say is coming also this area, from András Schiff, (see the link below) I see Schiff as a musician with the greatest technique. His Bach recordings proove that he can express anything he wants in his instrument, without any technical limits. (I listened Gould recordings for two decades, then Schiff's 2nd take on ECM came out in 2003)
"...the concept of technique is continually misunderstood. What now is often described as technique, is actually mere mechanics. Mechanics is something motor-like, machine-like. Technique is much more refined, something humans have evolved."
"Never permit a person to exercise mechanically! Mechanization of musicians is unworthy of human beings! When you walk through the corridors of music schools, you very often hear how people will play a passage taken from a piano piece mechanically, fifty times in succession, rapidly and loudly—it's frightful to witness how idiotically people practice."
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Whole interwiew at:
Schiller Institute Andras Schiff Interview FIDELIO Magazine
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I disagree - those things are inseparable. I've already detailed the musical attributes of speed. It's not like I don't listen to myself when I'm practising alternate picking. Originally Posted by Gabor
One needs mechanics to play music - unless you're Jim Hall etc. I'm not sure why you feel the need to separate 'mechanic' and 'technique'.
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