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Haha, I just remembered who you are. i am a dingbat.
Originally Posted by CliffR
Cool video - thanks for clarifying
So I think DL at 220 is a stretch for now, but I think playing tunes like that is one of the best ways to work on technique. You have a lot of tricky stuff to work on in bop heads like that; arpeggios, string skipping, you name it.
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03-14-2022 03:27 PM
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Yes it’s 8th notes at 240. That tends to be how we measure swing tempos (but feeling them as 16ths is not a bad idea…) Originally Posted by CliffR
I presume when we're talking about Donna Lee we're talking about 8th notes at 240, which is the same as 16ths at 120? Pretty straightforward for linear scalar lines, less so for the kind of interval skips in bebop. (Not that I can do linear lines at this speed anymore, because I stopped trying to do it for hours every evening.)
As I understand it, scalpel picking comes mostly from moving the thumb and forefinger, so definitely related to circle picking, if not another name for the same thing. Sarod is the motion of turning a key in a door. As such, I think the pick probably escapes the string on both up and downstrokes, which may help with crossing strings. Although I seem to remember that kind of motion is something Troy Grady advises against. I *think* this may be what Eddie Van Halen used to do when he did the fast tremolo picking at the end of his solos. You see he bends at the wrist to make a swan shape, which makes it easier to get the sort of controlled shaking that is needed for sarod. It's interesting that he only used this as a bit of flash on a single string - it's not an integral part of his technique.
Here's another Pebber video where he demonstrates sarod speed, although he doesn't start playing across strings until right at the very end:
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Whether or not these players could manage DL at those tempos, I would say this is not unusual today among professionals and music students etc. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
It’s a good test of one’s technique.
240 is actually quite a medium tempo for bop, but the DL head is very hard and has triplets etc in.
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Lol - so you know my chops are nowhere near that at the moment Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Donna Lee is unusual in that it has long stretches of eighth notes with no relief. The last 8 of the tune include 6 bars of constant eighths and include a triplet.
It isn't the only one, but it's the hardest one that I hear people call. I flipped through the Omnibook. I can't recall hearing Klaun Stance but it starts with 9 bars of eighths at 300 bpm.
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Troy-boy would have had to possess a time machine to know how TF picked at the height of his powers, which was the 50s. It was all downhill after that. No visual evidence of his plectrum technique back then exists. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Do you think that he changed technique then? Originally Posted by sgcim
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What an interesting thread! Originally Posted by Christian Miller
re. time machines and Tal's changing technique. Although barely enough to call 'evidence' there is at least one glimpse of Tal Farlow from way back, playing with Red Norvo as part of a quintet in the 1951 movie 'Texas Carnival'.
<https://youtu.be/hwWjWVFi7Mo?t=114>
Tal's rhythm playing (on his ES250) is clearly seen in Ann Miller's distracting dance routine to the song 'It's Dynamite'. Apart from a few fills Tal doesn't play single-note lines here, but his rhythm guitar playing is also fascinating and his right hand moves beautifully with effortless precision. From time to time it also returns to a resting point, near the end of the fingerboard, in a kind of default 'ready-for-action' position. Frustratingly, one of these fills is just after Ann Miller spins directly in front of Tal, but it looks at that point as if he might be picking in a position above his Charlie Christian pickup. (As sgcim says, we'd need a time machine to get a closer look at that plectrum.)
However, as regards changing techniques ... In the early 1980s Tal was filmed again with Red Norvo a few more times and one of these videos shows him playing 'All of Me' in the classic Norvo Trio format (with Steve Novosel, and no dancers). It's a similar tempo and Tal uses a similar right hand approach to rhythm. Plus we get a decent guitar solo this time.
<https://youtu.be/Kjl2LPLjWPw?list=RDKjl2LPLjWPw&t=152>
Despite the poor synchronisation between image and sound, it's instructive to watch (Tal's part begins at 2 mins in). The relaxation and effortlessness in the playing is astounding. (I wouldn't call this 'downhill', either technically or creatively.)
I found it interesting to look more closely at both of these clips using YouTube's 'half-speed' setting. On the 1980s film, it's a little easier to see how Tal uses a variety of pick-strokes. He's still picking most of the time over the neck pickup. There is also some hybrid picking, using the pick and a finger, to play a line harmonised in tenths. Many of his phrases start off conventionally with picked upstrokes on the offbeats (more unusually, he also does this, extensively, in his chord melody playing) and there's frequent use of a variety of left hand legato slides or 'hammer-on' notes. There's even some tapping - watch as he adjusts his volume while playing three repeated 'left-finger-only' taps on the low E string - he also did some of this tapping on the final notes of the Norvo Trio's 1950s recording of 'Night and Day'.
Tal's spectacular left hand facility is more visually striking, but his equally amazing right hand technique is more subtle: the accuracy and efficiency means that for much of the time he's lightly in contact with the pickguard with ring finger and/or little finger, even as he picks the lowest strings, and he can reach back to the low E with the pick while his fingers remain resting on the scratch plate. It's also interesting to see the movements he makes in the air above the strings as he adjusts position: he often plays a few up and down movements 'getting the motor running' before engaging with the string.
For good close-up of later Tal playing really fast, have a look at him playing 'Strike up the Band' with Barney Kessel
<https://youtu.be/fFps6V5o8y4?t=59>
Hope this helps.
All the best,
Mick WLast edited by Mick Wright; 03-15-2022 at 03:11 PM. Reason: spelling :(
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Cheers, Mick.
I found this:
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Tal's picking technique reminds of Les Paul's.
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I'd agree with Christian about overthinking the picking approaches. Lol, when I find myself complaining, "Why is switching strings fast so hard?", then I switch to fingerstyle. Soon enough it's, "Why is playing fast on the same string so hard?" Balance in the universe.
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According to my friend, who has written an unpublished book about it, the problem was a neurological one that was brought on by alcohol. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
At first it was only when he drank. My friend spoke with Jack Six, the bass player on The Return of TF(1969) about the rehearsals and the recording session for the album.
At the rehearsals, it was the old Tal, 'poppin' and burnin', but at the recording session, he was so concerned about what the critics and people would think of his playing, and his use of gimmicks (his octave divider), that he had to calm himself down some way.
They started playing, and Alan Dawson and Jack Six looked at each other with disbelief. They couldn't believe it was the same guitarist they had been rehearsing with.
The plectrum and LH were not synchronized, hence the time was all over the place. The once brilliant technique seemed to have disappeared.
After that, his relationship with Tina fell apart, and his drinking got worse. It became a chronic problem, and just laying off the booze didn't help.
I knew nothing about all of this, and i went to see him play at the Newport-New York Jazz Festival in Central Park, and i left the place in a state of shock. I couldn't believe it was the same TF from the 50s, whose every record as a leader or sideman I had.
I asked another friend of mine, who was on the scene as a player in the 50s, and he recalled seeing TF at The Composer, walking around with a huge glass of liquor, and he was drinking it like water. Apparently he could tolerate it back then, because it wasn't affecting his playing like it did eleven years later.
Eventually he changed his way of playing so it became more focused on his chord work instead of single line playing.
All his work in the 50s was on the highest technical, creative, and musical .level of the time, but there's no visual record of it, so troy would have to take his spy camera and go back in time like the Terminator to demonstrate it for us.
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Very Very true. The picking stroke is like the pool (snooker for you Christian) stroke. It's a feel thing. Like golf. Think about it too much and your done: Originally Posted by timmer
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that’s sad. I can see why he wanted to jack it in. Originally Posted by sgcim
According to my friend, who has written an unpublished book about it, the problem was a neurological one that was brought on by alcohol.
At first it was only when he drank. My friend spoke with Jack Six, the bass player on The Return of TF(1969) about the rehearsals and the recording session for the album.
At the rehearsals, it was the old Tal, 'poppin' and burnin', but at the recording session, he was so concerned about what the critics and people would think of his playing, and his use of gimmicks (his octave divider), that he had to calm himself down some way.
They started playing, and Alan Dawson and Jack Six looked at each other with disbelief. They couldn't believe it was the same guitarist they had been rehearsing with.
The plectrum and LH were not synchronized, hence the time was all over the place. The once brilliant technique seemed to have disappeared.
After that, his relationship with Tina fell apart, and his drinking got worse. It became a chronic problem, and just laying off the booze didn't help.
I knew nothing about all of this, and i went to see him play at the Newport-New York Jazz Festival in Central Park, and i left the place in a state of shock. I couldn't believe it was the same TF from the 50s, whose every record as a leader or sideman I had.
I asked another friend of mine, who was on the scene as a player in the 50s, and he recalled seeing TF at The Composer, walking around with a huge glass of liquor, and he was drinking it like water. Apparently he could tolerate it back then, because it wasn't affecting his playing like it did eleven years later.
Eventually he changed his way of playing so it became more focused on his chord work instead of single line playing.
All his work in the 50s was on the highest technical, creative, and musical .level of the time, but there's no visual record of it, so troy would have to take his spy camera and go back in time like the Terminator to demonstrate it for us.
is it not more likely that this was a decay in his existing technique more than a change to a totally different tecnique?
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however just because you don’t want to overthink it it doesn’t mean that you want to underthink it either. And therein lies the rub. Originally Posted by ccroft
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i don’t think that’s how physics works Originally Posted by ArnoldSchoenberg
Another factor here re gypsy picking is the sui-generis Selmer-Mac bridge position. If you look at where on the guitar gypsy players are picking much of the time, it's farther to the tailpiece end of the instrument than would be possible on most every other guitar type. A Selmer-Mac bridge is an inch or two farther in that direction than it would be on an archtop or flattop. Surely that's factor too, body-mechanics-wise.
Relative to where the leg scoop/rest is and therefore where the guitar is positioned resting on the leg seated, the difference can be substantial and form-changing. Were a gypsy player to sit with the Super 400 below and set their picking hand in its normal position, they'd be playing in between the bridge and tailpiece.
... Now that I think of it, I guess some classical/flamenco guitars have the bridge similarly away to the tail end also.
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After rpjazzguitar mentioned that passage in Donna Lee I was really intrigued to see if I could play it at speed. I think I mostly get away with it at 232bpm:
I had to get the Jackson out for this. Amazing to think the original was recorded in 1947 yet super strats weren't invented until the 80s.
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The Selmer- Macaferri had a cutaway and 24 frets. What more do you want? Originally Posted by CliffR
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I don't think a whammy bar and locking nut is too much to ask for, is it?
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done Originally Posted by CliffR
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Lol!
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Troy Grady's video seems to describe me to a "T": max picking speed of 16th notes at 120-130, tension starts to build up when i play at that speed.
I'm considering rebuilding my right hand technique (bear in mind, i've had over 30 years on the guitar).
I bought Cecil Alexander's Picking Master class and started going through it but I think i will need a deeper look at technique.
What do people think are the best sources for picking method? Have you actually paid for Troy Grady's content or just perused the free stuff on YouTube?
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I paid for access to Grady's site for one whole year! About two weeks later, feeling just slightly discouraged, I gave up playing guitar with a plectrum and turned to classical. Irony of ironies, a year later, when my subscription to his site ended, I once again turned to plectrum-wielding guitar playing... Originally Posted by josh74
TBH you don't really need to subscribe to his site, as far as I could tell (and definitely not for a year!) There is enough good advice on youtube.
Just over a month now since I've started the process of rebuilding my plectrum technique, and I've had some success, just through trying to play fast tremolo and keeping a loose arm and wrist and experimenting with different plectrum grips and positions, I've landed upon a upstroke-escape type of motion, and while I still need to wiggle my arm from the elbow sometimes to get things going, after a time the movement basically comes from the wrist. This makes me really quite happy! But I am lucky since I have the whole day in which to practice. So I've been working, in addition to tremolo, on syncing this new-found picking speed with my left-hand, just along one string mostly, but also with a few licks where the last stroke on the string is an upstroke. This is part of my technique practice, and takes up between a quarter and a third of my practice time, the rest of the time is spent on learning a few standards - recently I've started practising drop 2 & 4 chords (two per bar) over standards, being already au fait with drop 2 and drop 3 chords, keeping the metronome on beats 2 & 4 (or in the case of a jazz waltz, just on beat 2) and practising continuous arpeggio and scale types of exercises, as well as composing solos, transcribing, reading... the time just flies by.
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I learned to gypsy pick through some online lessons. Originally Posted by josh74
Look, the hard bit is not the info.
once the principles are thoroughly understood the main thing is commit rigorously to doing something that feels weird and may actually make you worse at guitar for a few months.
which is why people like a trusted teacher. It’s SCARY.
don’t allow yourself to play the old way when doing exercises. Be aware of what you are doing, film yourself, be very conscious of the details and quality of the movements you are making and how they feel. It may be too much to do more than 5m at a time. Concentration is key.
Self policing is all important. If you don’t know how to practice, and most people don’t really, you have to learn. (But once you get it you’ll feel empowered.)
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My approach was always straight alternate picking when playing rock and blues, but I've added in more hybrid paying now that I'm into jazz as it is completely necessary for any fastish runs that go across more than one string., but its not consistently hybrid picking wherever you could do it. I just played a bit now and noticed that I play purely alternate save for when a fast run comes out.
Hmmmm, picking technique, seems to me like something that can be idealised in a quest for technical perfection, yet that technical perfection is not necessary to play great music.
Pass explains his picking here from about 6:10 onwards,
I wouldn't call that technical perfection, plus Kenny Burrell ive always found to be a bit ropey when playing fast stuff, he clearly struggles a bit here from 3:00
on:
Yet kenny B is one of my favourites to listen to.
Also look how Montgomery's style is inherently linked to his picking technique, or rather lack there of. His thumb only approach stops him from playing long fast lines, resulting in the lovely sounding short concise phrases that he knocks out.
Not strictly a jazz player but there are YouTube vids where bb king talks about using only down strokes as much as possible cos he prefers the sound he gets.
I guess the point im trying to make is that we all want one thing right, to play nice sounding guitar. Maybe the route to that is adapting round your technical deficiencies and seeing what comes out. Not saying don't practice technique at all as clearly ud be stuck playing twinkle little star, but accepting that ur not a virtuoso and focusing on nice sounding music is ultimately more pleasing.Last edited by KingKong; 04-01-2022 at 03:47 AM.
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