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I remember back in the day making a real effort to stop playing all double time on ballads. Once I got slow eighth note swing down, my time feel at other tempos skyrocketed.
Somehow recently I started thinking, "I wonder how far I can take this?"
How slow can you guys play locked into the upbeat, and placing your downbeat consistently in your preferred spot?
I've been messing around with this. I tap my foot on the actual downbeat and play my eighth notes. At absurdly slow tempos it was really interesting to see where my downbeats actually land.
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03-12-2020 01:31 PM
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I like to try and feel the 6 on 4 at really slow tempos.
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Well, I'll be trying tonight or tommorrow and reporting back. I imagine I will be humbled.
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Don't forget to tap your foot on the downbeat so you can see where your downbeat is in relation; if that makes sense.
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Quite slow, but you don't want to swing too slow anyway.
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Originally Posted by ragman1
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I remember seeing the drummer Martin Drew in London (in a pub called The Bull's Head) demonstrating the most stupendous in the pocket swing groove at 50bpm (I checked it as he was playing). This was in the 70s and it has stayed with me since then. He was eventually hired by Oscar Peterson.
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03-13-2020, 02:21 PM #9joelf Guest
You let time pass.
That's all...
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Originally Posted by corpse
Actually, I think one of the hardest things to do on a slow tune is play "straight" and not sound unbelievably square.
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Originally Posted by joelf
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louie A- muggles
cheers
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I’m not looking for tips, it was an idea to challenge guys who can already swing and maybe have a conversation.
Videos were cool, thanks.
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"Lugubrious." An adjective that is not, shall we say, overused. Love it.
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If you imagine your notes and their duration like sticks, you can "lay them down" into the rhythm different ways.
What I mean is how it feels when you place them; "square", tight, Muzak style sounds tend to come from a focus and feeling of placing the sticks "head first" where their duration is initiated.
head first feels like x---> x-> x-> x------> (focus on the "X" at the beginning)
feet first feels like >---x >-x >-x >------x (focus on the "X" at the ending)
Of course you actually mechanically do start notes at their "head first end", but if you can play them as if you are imagining "laying them down" feet first with a focus on the end of the note, you can overcome the square sound.
Sax, trumpet, violin... breath and bow instruments' owners already do this instinctively (they may be described as having "a fat beat width"); pianist a little in terms of how to release notes... guitarists have to learn to not focus so much on the attack of their notes. In general it may seem to us that after the note is started it is a done deal, but trying to get the feeling of placing it foot first goes a long way toward unconsciously modifying one's hands and rhythm.
Beat width when playing up tempo naturally expands with respect to the pace; to the point of this thread, it is when the tempo slows down that those with a fat beat width begin to show, maintaining swing and other good things...
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Beat width when playing up tempo naturally expands with respect to the pace; to the point of this thread, it is when the tempo slows down that those with a fat beat width begin to show, maintaining swing and other good things...[/QUOTE]
I like the term “beat width.” Is the meaning something close to: The width between the beat where everyone taps their foot, and where the soloist actually plays the down beat?
Because that’s what I’m interested in Discussing
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pn...love your intricate breakdown...understood..and right!...but ultimately...it's timing is everything
either it grooves or it don't...
no matter what kind of music...or tempo...from js bach to t monk
cheers
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Gigged this chart last fall.
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Originally Posted by corpse
Because that’s what I’m interested in Discussing[/QUOTE]
i presume you are familiar with those two papers that came out re:swing and the theory of upbeat synchronisation that was partly supported by the second paper? I’ll dig out the ref if not.
So apparently your beat tends to lag less as you approach the end of a phrase and your inequality increases which is interesting. This was observed in Freddie Hubbard.
anyway beat placement is a funny one. I suspect it depends on accentuation. I don’t think if you accent a quarter note or a downbeat accent it should ever be behind the beat. OTOH if you are playing a string of 8ths you lay back a lot more. There’s ebb and flow.
I wonder the problem with playing a high swing inequality with a locked in downbeat is that you aren’t feeling the upbeats, not that you need to address the lag of your downbeats. Certainly learning to feel upbeats more independently and accurately is a very important part of learning.
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Also there’s the old Tristano school thing of practicing in single time 60-80 bpm. Speeding the recording up is fun. Usually it sounds very corny time wise for me haha
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Originally Posted by christianm77
So apparently your beat tends to lag less as you approach the end of a phrase and your inequality increases which is interesting. This was observed in Freddie Hubbard.
anyway beat placement is a funny one. I suspect it depends on accentuation. I don’t think if you accent a quarter note or a downbeat accent it should ever be behind the beat. OTOH if you are playing a string of 8ths you lay back a lot more. There’s ebb and flow.
I wonder the problem with playing a high swing inequality with a locked in downbeat is that you aren’t feeling the upbeats, not that you need to address the lag of your downbeats. Certainly learning to feel upbeats more independently and accurately is a very important part of learning.[/QUOTE] VERY interested to see those resources.
Strings of eighths is what I meant to refer to in my OP. Not that I would hardly do that at slow tempos, it’s just like...an interesting thing.
What I found playing at these crawling tempos (although, I don’t know why I didn’t think of recording and slowing down) is for quarter notes I’m right on the beat, and my triplets start and stop exactly on the beat, and when I go into my eighth line it has like this contrasting pull.
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So my triplets are really snappy. Anyone stretch out triplets?
I hope beaumont reports back with results.
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Also, does anyone else hate Love for Sale? I will puke if I ever have to play it again.
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Before I abandon this thread:
Originally Posted by christianm77
2. That's funny they used Freddie Hubbard as an example in the paper and so did the video. It is exactly what I'm talking about, and then playing slower than ballad tempo to challenge ourselves.
3. I don't teach, but I do play with a number of musicians at an earlier stage in their jazz development than me. I cannot for the life of me explain that swing isn't ding dinga ding, even if they feel locked in doing that. And I think you are right, I don't think they can feel the swung upbeat without playing the downbeat.
Not really sounding very 'jazzy'. Is it in the...
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